Platinum SHM-CDs launched! (Disc 3)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by stereoptic, Feb 7, 2014.

  1. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me"

    Location:
    USA
    Hi Claus, I thought about this, as you mentioned that before.
    The difference between SACD and reg. layer in your system is also not so big.
    I believe that your player is working extremely well with regular discs, able to squeeze max info from them, from old 16-bit masters and such.
    Not so much people have such machine like yours.
    I will tell about my experience. These Platinum discs are very sensitive to the system. In each system I tried them (in stores and audio shows) sound was different.
    I upgraded my system to better player - Cary Audio SACD 360 Pro; before I had Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista; difference was huge before, now - less.
    Like yours, it's taking more info from old CDs. That's what it is.
     
  2. Claus

    Claus Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    Let me see.... it's the same mastering. When I load the SHM-CD or PT-SHM on my tray, there is no difference. Because the same data are in the buffer, before I can hear the first note. I made my comparison on my dCS and emmLabs... the same result. Maybe a different result on other playersm but not on High End players, which extract the data in a buffer, before they convert the data to analog.
     
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  3. Plan9

    Plan9 Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    And that's because they are different file formats and that a conversion had to be done. Also, the DAC plays a part.

    I do not believe SHM alone makes any difference to the final perceived sound quality.
    Also, platinum may make a difference, but a negative one as this material is so less reflective than aluminum for CD lasers that it could be triggering the error correction on some players more often than standard CDs, thus subtly changing the sound quality. However if your CD player is fully compatible with CD-Rs there shouldn't be any problem or difference.
    Psychological bias is a real thing.
     
  4. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me"

    Location:
    USA
    From my post, posted 4 year ago:
    "By the way, what titles did you compare Claus? We never heard any report from you before.
    Looks to me, Claus, that Barry Diament comment on the "material" and respect around his name pissed you off a lot.
    Sorry, but I cannot count your comment seriously without detailed review.
    To tell you more, it is a shame that you, having such a great reference level system, never contribute any review to our thread.
    "

    Discrepancies in what you were saying before and now make me even more doubtful.
    Again, you comment is not counted, as it was 4 years ago.
    Sorry about that.
     
    Jimmy Agates likes this.
  5. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me"

    Location:
    USA
    The smoothness of the platinum surface (the smoothest surface available) took major role here, surpassing the importance of the reflectivity. That's what happened here.
    (We have our members Mr. Britt and redfox62 comparisons here, confirming positive result of the Pt reflective coating).

    I always appreciate your comments and explanations, Plan9.
    In this case, however, I would like you to speak not from a theoretical point of view, but after a comparative tests.
    Barry Diament was skeptical about SHM before he tested the SHM-CD:"My expectations were not high as I figured these were marketing inventions. Then I listened..."
    I wish that you would listen too. Psychological bias my a...
     
  6. Time Is On My Side

    Time Is On My Side Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Ok I will concede. You guys likely have far better systems than I do. Anyway, it's too bad Universal quit making these. I wish they would license the format out to other record companies who could do some flat transfers off of the original masters for SACD and CD.
     
    Linger63 and toilet_doctor like this.
  7. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    Pt reflectivity is actually lower than Al. I work in a semiconductor fab that deposits those metals as well as a bunch of others, by different techniques too. Pt is less reflective than Al.
     
    zeram1, Plan9, ricks and 1 other person like this.
  8. Alan1074

    Alan1074 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    SACDs were perfectly fine. All these other formats, including this latest one where you need special software to unfold and play the hi-res (I mean, seriously?) weren’t even necessary if SACDs had survived. That format was spot on. So, to get a true high res sound now, instead of it playing on your gear you now have to purchase new hardware? Very clever.

    I’ve bought a ton of SHMs and in retrospect I could have paid a chunk off my mortgage for any marginal, if that, sonic improvement. I think Platinum SHMs actually sound worse than regular CDs. Why I don’t know. My system is very high end, so theoretically it shouldn’t be the case.

    Japan has gotten far too greedy with these formats, and the constant reissuing of the same titles, over and over again. Result for me, I said “no more”.

    Haven’t bought any CDs from Japan now for over a year. I did buy Hong Kong SACDs.

    In an age where streaming is taking over, they will lose this cash cow of selling endless new miracle formats. Yet a lot of us still want physical hi res, so a few top tips for them:

    1 - Make more SACDs
    2 - Release a bigger variety of titles
    3 - Increase the content for better value for money

    For those who enjoy SHM, Platinum SHM and this other new crazy format, I’m pleased you are still getting enjoyment out of these physical music formats, but for me, I’m done. SACDs or nothing now. No more shiny, zany formats selling overpriced 16 bit data.
     
  9. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me"

    Location:
    USA
    Alan, listen to me.
    (from the Post #1340)
    "Especially "picky" is Platinum Reflective Coating, which strongly depends on the system configuration and the player itself. We even have two reports, and I experienced myself twice in different hi-end systems with underpowered speakers, when the non-Pt disc sounded better than the Pt version. Put on a more powerful amp, and Pt shines."

    You are the 3rd person in this tread who mentioned this issue.
    Pt discs are very sensitive, as an indicator, they give us a signal: "Your amp does have not enough power for your speakers."
    It took me a long time to answer the question: How much power do we need?
    Finally, when I already chose my speakers, experimenting with different amps, I came to the conclusion:
    At list twice as much as maximum power handling of your speakers.
    I have 500W speakers, and my amp is 1000W monoblocks. I read in one book:
    "Buy as much power as you can afford."
    Many years later, I bumped on the thread here with this question. Barry Diament was in it, and he said the same thing.

    I checked your speakers, it looks like you need min 200-250W per ch. Yes you have a very nice amp, but this is not enough for your also very good speakers. They do not match, and your Pt disc told you so.

    I would take the speakers where I bought them, and try them with 200, 250 and 300W amps.
    Take you favorit CDs and Pt with you. You will not recognise your speakers, and, like I said, Pt will shine.
     
    Alan1074 likes this.
  10. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me"

    Location:
    USA
    This was discussed within a thread. Somewhere, there is a table with all numbers and Uni's translated explanation that Pt was widely used in various technical fields because of its smoothness and durability, but not in audio. They said: "We dared to try and it works."
    After project, they used them in a few releases, while Pt blanks were available.
    I doubt that they will return to Pt, since they stick to UHQCDs - cheaper and less system dependent. So do independent labels. They licensed UHQ vs. Pt. Only JVC used it, but they don't need license.

    Does UHQCD sound better then Pt? One guy, a producer from HK, compared them at an audio show, and the UHQCD won. But it was not pure UHQCD, but with FORS - sound improving tech used during the production process.
    I needed blind test to determine if the HK UHQCD with FORS (1000 copies Limited Ed.) sounds better then mass market SACD with the same mastering. And UHQ sounded slightly better, almost the same, but a ted crispier. However, UHQ + FORS couldn't surpass SACD with limited (1000 copies) resent release, just came close.

    I would like them to use Pt reflective coating for UHQCD MQA, but this will increase the cost and slow down sales.
     
  11. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    Apparently Savoy Brown had a series of reissues that were flat transferred, original thread here: 11 Savoy Brown SHM CDs being released in Japan in Sept. 2017

    Any other "sleeper" non-platinum Japan CDs that have been flat transferred? IMO that is really exciting that flat transfer mastering is still (or at least long after the platinum flat transfer CD and SACDs stopped) coming out of Japan. I am definitely going to pick up a few of those Savoy Brown albums.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
  12. ricks

    ricks Senior Member

    Location:
    127.0.0.1:443
    Correct, and not limited to "High End" anymore either.

    Though it's amazing how little willingness to understand/learn the tech many of the Japan 1st press crowd here display.

    I will add that due to the lower reflectivity of Plat SHM-CDs, players which have issues reading CDRs will likley have issues reading them. I have what may be the first DVD-Audio player model Pioneer issued xvd723 from 2000 IIRC, I fired it up last a few years ago and tried a Plat SHM-CD on it and sure enough it was not able to read it. The model is also unable to read CDRs which was mentioned in the manual.

    All that said the original Plat CD packages were really nice glad I got a bunch of them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
    Plan9 likes this.
  13. ricks

    ricks Senior Member

    Location:
    127.0.0.1:443
    As you know nearly half the data on a Redbook CD is redundant, much like stating Redbook CD :) Error correction is part of the format's spec/design/architecture and is utilized during each and every playback. When error correction is more excessive that the usual din and the player can not keep up from my experience what results are gaps in sound. Things like reduced high's low's or mid's or "pinched" sound is not possible as when data is missing it's missing thus silence although nasty diginoise is possible under certain bad reads conditions.

    The odds of a player reading binary data wrong from a redbook and somehow writing it back so that result is the same except for example slightly "reduced soundstage" or "reduced mids" is theoretically impossible. With the odds of it occurring being a great deal less than our Sun spontaneously going supernova as I write this very post.

    As you said Psychological bias is a real thing - and the only one with any scientific merit. Then again for nearly a decade I have not attempted to sell a CD so sticking to science and facts is easy.

    P.S. If the Sun did indeed supernova as I wrote this then please feel to discount my entire post.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  14. Masmusic

    Masmusic Compact Discs Forever!

    I Have been purchasing from CDJapan on a regular basis for the past 6 or more years. Have over 300 mini lps and Japanese releases in my CD collection. Never had I had to pay any extra duties or taxes! I order one CD the Rolling Stones A Bigger Band Collection and the order was close to $200.00 and came directly to me! I love Canada!!
     
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  15. Time Is On My Side

    Time Is On My Side Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Are these only done for bands that Universal owns the rights to? I have not seen any from artists on other labels.
     
  16. hvbias

    hvbias Midrange magic

    Location:
    Northeast
    It's why I am so thankful we have RCTs in medicine, we'd still be in the stone ages without them. Ah well audiophiles like to live in a certain era as well ;)
     
    ricks likes this.
  17. formu_la

    formu_la I'm not a robot

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Same here, almost. One time they got me, and I hated it really bad.:mad:
     
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  18. toilet_doctor

    toilet_doctor "Rockin' chair's got me"

    Location:
    USA
    Uni, Victor (JVC) and WOWOW Records for King Crimson 7" Mini LP Box releases.
     
  19. serj

    serj Forum Resident

    Location:
    Moscow
    Can anyone comment on the sound of the Platinum SHM CD Roll stones Steel wheels, pls?
     
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  20. Mike McMann

    Mike McMann Forum Resident

    Haven't listened to this in a long time and revisited now. I really liked this disc when it originally came out.
    I find the separation and soundstage on the Platinum is excellent throughout. I have no idea what the DR #'s are on this disc, but I can say there is some good room to play with the volume. Overall the sound is a wee bit thin but not glaring at all. I still really like this disc.
     
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  21. serj

    serj Forum Resident

    Location:
    Moscow
    Great, thank you. I still can to buy it quite cheap. So better to do it, if the sound is nice. For now I have only Tattoo you Platinum and like it as well.
     
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  22. Mike McMann

    Mike McMann Forum Resident

    If you are interested in the Stones Platinum discs I can say they are all great sounding discs.
     
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  23. Time Is On My Side

    Time Is On My Side Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, WI
    I find little reason to get the SHM when the original CBS sounded great and can be found cheap. I have SF, Exile, GHS, IORR, B&B, SG and TY all on the SHM Platinum and would say they are definitive.
     
  24. SOONERFAN

    SOONERFAN Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norman, Oklahoma
    Are those Stones Platinum discs the same mastering as the Japan SHM SACD discs from several years ago other than the CD vs SACD resolution differences?
     
  25. Mike McMann

    Mike McMann Forum Resident

    I thought they were but I checked the Platinum thread in Feb. 2014 and yes they are.
     

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