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Playing 4 speakers at once

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by dennis1077, Dec 24, 2018.

  1. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Let's start with your credential's. Playing the guitar and owning about 5-tube amps does not make you an authority on speaker design and sound propagation. Neither do taking college level courses in physics and calculus.

    Being a loudspeaker design engineer or a professional sound engineer might.

    As for your "humility", going around, without any real world qualifications and telling people the they are incorrect doesn't say much for your "humility", which is something else that, I don't know why it would enter into the discussion at hand.

    You did make it a point to quote me and then proceeded to go into into making suggestions as you do again about me "learning about audio", when I asked you one simple question. I did not attack you, I merely asked you this one simple question. I asked this question, because I had no ideal what your point is.

    I asked for a simple explanation, nothing more.

    You then, without explanation posted FIVE illustrations, without any captioning or explanation as to what each one of them represent and their relevance to this thread.

    Again, I asked another simple question.

    An answer such as something simple as "I was referring to four speaker's in the guitar cabinet" would have been sufficient.

    Now, I will answer. People have been putting four speakers in a single box, for many years before there were phased array speakers, such are used at most every major concert's today.

    The simple act of placing four direct radiating driver's in a single box, is NOT created a phased array or even anything close to resembling a phased array.

    With regard to the four speaker's in a single box thing was:

    I continue to stand by the above statement.

    If I had a 16' wide stage and I had four direct radiating speaker's each in an individual square enclosure and I were to place them across the front of the stage, at 4' intervals, it would disperse their sound fairly evenly out over the audience.

    If I took these same speakers and arranged them into a cube directly in the center of the stage, combined, they would create a sound pressure wave that would be +6 dB higher directly in front of this cube of speakers (than was in front of each individually separated enclosure).

    Being that we now have a SPL of an additional +6 dB directly in front of this cube of speakers, on axis, there will now be more sound being projected in one specific centralized area. That would raise the SLP of someone who is seated directly in the center of the cube stack of speakers, further back in the audience.

    However, for those who are sitting farther over in the audience, more to the right and left side of the stage, they will now be hearing sounds that are radiating from the stage, at a far lower SPL, than when these same speakers were lined up across the front of the stake, dispersing their sound more evenly throughout the audience.

    Sorry... But all this information that you have graciously provided with regard to phased array's is simply NOT applicable here.

    BTW, I am familiar with Meyer Sound and their products in general, that you quote here. I find that a simple guitar cabinet with four 10" speakers's "missing" from their line of phased array's of pro-sound speaker array's. Perhaps there is a reason for that?

    Well, I think I prefer to be not "fully informed", with regard to why there is four speaker's inside of one cabinet. All this time, here I was figuring that it was because it was easier to move and set up one single cabinet, than setting up multiple cabinet's..

    OK Sherlock.

    I think that this will conclude any further discussion on my part. Have a Happy New Year!
     
    quicksrt likes this.
  2. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. ME USA
    Now this says it all. So being a designer of speakers or a sound engineer might matter in this discussion. It's amazing that you feel your opinions and that's what they are would matter more than someone well versed in this discussion.

    So what are your credentials in regard to the reproduction of sound?
     
  3. classicrocker

    classicrocker Life is good!

    Location:
    Worcester, MA, USA
    Stereo and 4 speaker setups are for amateurs. I run my Marantz 9.2 Receiver in stereo mode for vinyl listening and it sounds fantastic. 9 speakers and 2 subs pumping out beautiful music. If that means I am not an "audiophile" I am cool with that.

    All joking aside I have run 4 speaker setups at various times in my life and they sounded great IMHO. There is no right or wrong way to enjoy our hobby. If it sounds good to you do it!
     
  4. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    For whatever it may be worth, here a professional speaker engineer discusses some of the objections being addressed here. Although not specifically concerning multiple speakers, a certain amount does apply regarding the concerns of comb filtering- which he explains the reasons why it is really a non-issue.

    Why be so overly concerned about comb filtering in column speakers when you probably get this all the time with the speakers y

    Furthermore it should be pointed out that concerts using amplified instruments, multiple speakers are almost always used- whose distance to the listeners often varies greatly.

    In almost every aspect of audio, there is almost always some level of tradeoff involved. Those insisting that 2 channel listening can only be optimized with a single pair of speakers and never more are either unaware of the benefits of multiple pairs or are choosing to ignore the fact. To dismiss the possibility outright without little or no experience is extremely close-minded. While multiple pairs may not be for everyone, it is a fact that some listeners do find the benefit outweighs the cost.

    De gustibus non est disputandum.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
    Hymie the Robot and SandAndGlass like this.
  5. Fruff76

    Fruff76 L100 Classic - Fan Club President

    I’m still a little confused as to how the vocals end up with 4 speakers. So, with 2, they are centered. Are there vocals behind you if the second set are in the back?
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  6. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Depends on how the speakers are placed, the type of speakers and how the system is balanced. In my own case, I do not have speakers placed behind the listening spot.
     
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  7. shokhead

    shokhead Head shok and you still don't what it is. HA!

    Location:
    USA
    I almost always do MULTI CH STEREO and my rears are on the side of me, not in the rear.
     
  8. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Same here.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  9. classicrocker

    classicrocker Life is good!

    Location:
    Worcester, MA, USA
    In my 9.2 setup, 2 of my rears are on the side of the listening position and two to the rear as height speakers. Really fills out the sound IMHO.
     
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  10. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Well Bill...

    Actually, if you do bother to go back and reread this thread from the beginning. My comments were strictly limited to addressing the OP's desire on if he was going to cause damage to his amp, specifically because he had two pair of speakers that he was planning to use and that they happened to have different impedance ratings.

    Other than answering and explaining things that the OP may benefit from being aware of, with regard to HIS desire to run two sets of speakers in the same room, I wasn't trying to make any point in this thread.

    I suggest that it is you, and not me that has made the statement that, "You've essentially turned this thread into whether playing four speakers at the same time for stereo content is fine and does not alter the original presentation".

    I personally do it because for me, it is fine and I do it specifically for the purpose of altering the original presentation. Of course, it is altering the original presentation, otherwise I wouldn't be doing it.

    I'm not the one who has turned this thread into anything. Other than show the OP different ways that it can be successfully accomplished and encouraging him to go ahead and try something that he intended to try anyway, I haven't commented at all about what conclusion the OP might come to, with his little experiment.

    Back on the first page of this thread, I did clarify my personal thoughts on this matter.

    From the first page, my position was and remains crystal clear.

    I have not told anyone else how to they should listen to their stereo. Perhaps you might refrain from giving me, you advise as to how I should listen to mine?

    On the second page, I comment again...

    I further not your comments on the 2nd page...

    "It's all a matter of preference with no wrong or right way IMO" ???

    I have never at any time, suggested that you and other's are not entitled to your opinions or to freely express them on the forum.

    From my POV, some here do have some "strange takes" on the subject that I do not obviously share or am in agreement with.

    Guy's, you are the ones that are telling me, in you terms that how I choose to listen to music is bad and is incorrect. Not the other way around.

    I'm not quite sure how to make it any more clear on my part. I do understand fully that there are perhaps a Billion or more people in this world who enjoy listening to there music at home through two speakers.

    What part of this, do you think that I am not understanding?

    Go back to the research that was conducted by Dr. Floyd Toole, while at Harmon International. It was the conclusion of Dr. Toole and Harmon international that about half of the test subjects preferred to have two speakers in front of them and the remainder, which accounted for the other HALF, had a preference for a more immersive sound listening experience.

    I fall in the second half.

    I'll pass on starting a thread, with regard to opinion's of how many forum member's "approve" of the way that I choose to listen to my music.

    I am no more seeking anyone's approval of how I listen to my music, any more than seeking approval of the choices of music that I choose to listen to.

    I'm wondering why YOU are suggesting that I do?
     
    62caddy likes this.
  11. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    The thread is really about something else right now and should deserve a separate thread. My own take - I prefer two-channel listening for most music, but on some recordings I use the Dolby Pro Logic II music encoding which I believe is a more processed version of the old Hafler stereo.

    But I would not use four speakers in each corner unprocessed - it will destroy the coding of the stereo as it was intended. If I want the event in front of me, I need have the setup reciprocal of the recording event, i.e. the wall behind the speakers should disappear and replaced by the scene. If I instead want to be transferred to the event itself, I use the surround channels.
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  12. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    I don't see where any particular placement scheme was specified in regards to the use of multiple speaker pairs. In any case, one speaker in every corner would not be a plan I would choose for myself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  13. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Actually, Bill, I do feel that my opinions mean more to me, than the opinion's of any expert. Which is kind of along the same lines as to why I don't have an "expert" come in and set up any aspect of my audio system.

    I don't care how an "expert" might feel that my audio system should be set up, I care how I feel that my audio system should be set up.

    Within this context, I might tend to listen more to someone's opinions, that may actually be qualified in the subject, yes.

    But seeing that most of us on the forum are not "really "experts" on all subject's of audio (including Moi), I tend to listen to opinions of those who I have some respect for, more so than other's, who seem to only throw around their opinions.

    The people who I tend to have respect for, don't have to be experts at all, any more than I am. What I'm looking for, are "opinion's" of those who happen to be knowledgeable about the subject that I have an interest in. For the most part, I define knowledgeable as having personal experience, as opposed to those who read something on the Internet.

    No credentials at all. But then, I'm not telling other people how they should be listening to there stereo's. :)

    That, IMO, is quite a bit different than offering an explanation on how I choose listen to my stereo.

    Most comments that I have ever made on the forum are from personal knowledge gained as a result of personal hand's-on experience.

    Those who are reading them, are perfectly free to interpret them as they wish.
     
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  14. shokhead

    shokhead Head shok and you still don't what it is. HA!

    Location:
    USA
    Starting to get a bit salty over 2/4 ch stereo
    I understand why some like me enjoy it and why others would not, same with surround and not surround
     
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  15. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    That's what I was just thinking. As if any of it actually has any meaning at all.

    For god's sake, you would think that we were discussing something important, like wire! o_O
     
    62caddy likes this.
  16. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Just as remarkable is the inverse relationship between the delta factor and controversy...:whistle:
     
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  17. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Curious why you both prefer MULTI CH STEREO to an upmix of some sort like dolby processing?
     
  18. 62caddy

    62caddy Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Speaking for myself, I'm extremely satisfied with the results from my current setup, plus I simply do not have any free rack space for additional electronics.
     
    Hymie the Robot likes this.
  19. shokhead

    shokhead Head shok and you still don't what it is. HA!

    Location:
    USA
    I just like the way it sounds. I never, ever, ever use the surround modes, ever!
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  20. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    Same here. I just like MULTI CH STEREO more than other modes.
     
  21. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I don't know about anyone else, but I can explain why I don't do it.

    The reason that I don't is two fold.

    One, I don't care for any DSP (Digital Signal Processing) beyond decoding pure discrete 5.1 surround sound.

    I don't care what it does to the source sound.

    Two, after the DAC, everything in my signal chain is pure analog, which is why I don't use electronic crossover's.

    If DSP were introduced into the chain, the pure analog signal would be analog no more. Sure, it would eventually be turned back into analog, but only after ti was turned into a digital signal and the DSP was used to modify the original signal on top of that.

    As a note. DSP does a major thing in screwing with the original phase relationships to accomplish its end goals, which is something that I want to absolutely avoid.

    Whether I run two or three systems together, all of the systems are and remain in perfect phase.

    There are two or three separate perfect stereo systems, the sound from any of them is not altered in any way.
     
  22. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I stopped using any processing many years ago. No bass management ect. Everything set to large on my Oppo and then sent to an analog preamp.

    I admit I haven't ever played around with MULTI CH STEREO. On the surface, it does seem somewhat lame crushing the stereo effect and moving the front soundstage to who knows where.

    I have however played around with mono sources and multi speakers. It almost always sounded better with more than one single speaker. What I did was take a quality mono source and created a 5.0 file. I played it back on my 5 full range speakers without any other manipulation. All five speakers were in front of me in a semi circle. The rich and full sound trumped any comb effects. The mono Floyd Piper recording really stood out. The song Bike sounded so much better using all the speakers compared to "only" one or two. The wall of sound was great and I preferred it so much more. It really wasn't even close.

    I have mixed (no pun intended) results using SpecWeb which is a software upmixing tool. As I have mentioned before @ QQ, the hit/miss ratio is very low. Between 90 and 95 percent just don't cut it. Taking a 2.0 mix, and creating a 5.1 (or 4.0) mix, without the original tracks, is basically a crapshoot. However, when it does work, Beck's Midnight Vultures for example, makes the effort worthwhile! The phase effect within the stereo mix must play out perfectly to get the desired results.
     
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  23. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Not even by accident? :) How would you know what you are missing?
     
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  24. shokhead

    shokhead Head shok and you still don't what it is. HA!

    Location:
    USA
    Compression.:bigeek:and it just doesn't sound good.
     
  25. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    City of Angels
    Right, if you don't know what the heck you are doing then don't do it.
     

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