POLL - Should sellers on the forum use "Excellent" to grade vinyl?

I have some stone MINT promos. Near Mint being the next step down, I have no problem producing them for inspection or for sale. They might not be LPs anyone would want to buy, but they exist.

And Mint and Near Mint LPs do not always sound perfect true.

I don't agree that Near Mint is the same as Mint. One is very very close, the other is it.

I know you want badly to use EX+ as a grade, yes your records scream a true EX+ for the most part. VG+ and VG++ just does not read as good does it? I understand.

 

MINT is a misnomer for vinyl that somehow was adopted out of numismatic grading & collecting.

A MINT item is an item that has not been handled directly by hands. It cannot show minute effects of age or touching. I am willing to bet that your stone mint promos are not mint. By that I mean I can almost guarantee I could inspect them - and find evidence of them being handled or simply aged a bit by existing in an oxygenated atmosphere for a few decades. If held to an angle in the right lighting and I can perceive the gloss being marred to any degree by contact with a substance like paper or a bag - then it can't be MINT. If any coloring on any part of the paper label has oxidized slightly, toned, or faded, then the record cannot be the same as the moment it left the stamping press. It is less than when it was new and unhandled.

Which brings us to the first purely subjective grade: Near Mint. Repeat the term NEAR a few times and ponder what 'near' means to different people.

Is a flawless / untouched / untouched looking / perfect playing record 'near mint' if the vinyl blend used leaves a surface noise signature?

Is a slightly off center but otherwise visually flawless / like-new record near mint?

How about a visually and audibly flawless record that, when rotating, appears to have a ripple or wave, showing its clearly not flat?

Is a visually flawless / like-new record with one single tiny near invisible nick -- that causes three loud pops -- a near mint record?

How about a flawless / like new fifty year old record that plays flawless & perfectly, but has the owners name penned across the label. Or a small sticker tear.

Incidentally i have no issue using or not using Excellent myself - as I maintain its all subjective. The word Excellent does rate 'higher' than Good in common parlance. In fact, Very Good is using Very as the modifier for Good. Its essentially the same as Good+.

There's Excellent dinners and theres Good dinners. Ask a hundred random people off the street which one they'd prefer to have.

 

The only way buyers who play their records will know if there are audible problems with a potential vinyl purchase is to have it play graded. Mint, M-, VG++, VG+, it doesn't matter. They can all have surface noise, and many do to some degree.

The problem with the SH classified vinyl grading system is that it tries to combine a Goldmine visual grading guide with an unrealistic, catch all phrase of "no surface noise" for both M- and VG+ descriptions. This is not going to work for most VG + records (or some NM records for that matter). That's why Raunch and I use VG++ for LPs that fall between M- and VG+. People at least have some idea what they are getting. I think EX is too vague. VG ++ is more accurate.

The reality is the SH vinyl grading system needs to change to more accurately reflect the actual grade of a record. Unless you only want sellers to use visual grading, then just using Goldmine will work. What we have now is not that helpful, especially when it comes to selling and buying VG+ vinyl.

 

Ideally the seller describes 2 things: how the record plays and how it looks.

After that? assign it any grade you want.

If someone said the original Beatles Parlophone with the gold lettering on a black label they bought in 1963 describes it as shiny and barely played, and on their new turntable plays really quiet with hardly any noise and a few tiny ticks, they can say its Fair to middling. I'm buying.

 

No, the + is used as a half grade higher, not a full grade as you stated (last sentence). G+ is G+, the next grade up is a VG.

There is no question that EX or EX+ rates better than G/Good in record trading circles. The question is, is it better than VG+? For UK sellers, many are stating it is used as better than G. Or the same, but not better than VG+ which it should normally be.

My experience is the same, it has been abused so badly, it should be retired.

If an EX grade can be used as above G, or above VG+, then we have problems. And currently it is used as above G.

 

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. Its not applying fractions to language. There is no such thing as 'half' way up from Good, or any other word like Decent, Pristine, or Fine.

What you're referring to is the already established grading system. I'm saying the use of these general terms is arbitrary and subjective no matter how you shake it. Even amongst experienced record graders its a bit of a mess. Every single record is unique based on its individual history. It needs to be particularly described or at the least, have words applied to it that gives a group of readers a fairly consistent notion of what it plays & looks like. Currently we have that, but its too broad and undefined.

Most collector grade records tend to fall into an extremely broad range of VG and/or Excellent, loose and fuzzy as those terms are. Neither one tells me exactly what condition the record is, rather, I get a general idea of what they are like ...provided.... I can trust the grader is experienced at applying the terms appropriately within the collectors realm.

 

OK, how about we use something like Steve's grading scale for vinyl. He has three grades listed between N- (M-) and VG +. The current SH Forum Classifieds vinyl grading system has none. Obviously something needs to be added (EX or VG++). I don't really care what it is, as long as there is some kind of reasonable description attached to it that gives folks something realistic to hang their hat on.

And... PLEASE remove "no surface noise" from VG+. That just doesn't work for most of those records..

 

Yes, something like
NM
EX
VG+
VG
G
P

or

NM
VG++
VG+
VG
G
P

Personally, I prefer VG++. "Excellent" is confusing, but if it were defined and sanctioned, that might help.

"No surface noise" for VG+ records is a bizarre, unrealistic standard IMO.

 

Even for a mint or near mint record. Technically, there is 'some' sort of sound or noise - even on the audiophile Japanese JVC vinyl, this includes the inky blackness just perceptible in the room - just like I hear on CDs and the best vinyl. I have many minty records where the vinyl leaves a signature sound. Its 'quiet' but still a sound. As long as there is a sound, a picky person can claim there's 'surface noise'.

 

So who is in charge of this, now that Pug is "gone"?

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/faq.php?faq=classifieds_policies#faq_classifieds_grading

 

I sell a lot of records in the classifieds here, as I know Raunchnroll and others in this thread do, and I like to use EX as a grade. I am NOT basing my EX from the same awful scale that most UK sellers seem to use, and I am very aware of the type of records you will usually get that are graded EX from ebay. However, I believe EX is better than VG+....it sounds like what it is, a truly ex record. VG+ means to me and a lot of other people, just by the VG being there, that it is somehow not quite good enough to buy. This is false in my case.

I offer a guarantee which completely negates any possible dispute. if you disagree with my description you are ALWAYS welcome to a refund...no questions asked. This makes every purchase from me safe, whether I list it is VG+++ or EX++ or whatever. I would rather use EX when I think that's what it is. I think there are not enough grades between NM and VG+ myself

A VERY detailed grading would be a 1-100 scale, but then that becomes SOOO subjective that even the same person might change his grading if he looked at it on a different day. 1-10 is not enough either. Maybe a 1-50? I doubt that will catch on though, it just seems to far fetched, but to have 50 subjective grades would at least give you SOME small idea what the seller really thought of a particular LP.

I hope no one takes offense to my listing an LP as EX but I will continue to do so, and continue to offer a guarantee with everything I sell. It's all semantics anyways, so I dotn see it as a problem. Like James said, it is very subjective, and my EX- may be your NM++. There is no way to know until its in your hands.

 

Based on the ever expanding array of letters available for grading on this thread, I'd stick to using well articulated descriptions of condition both visual and audible, in addition to a full guarantee if a buyer disagrees with said assessment. That should cover it.

 

+1

There needs to be something between VG+ and NM. I prefer the term VG++ but will take EX.

Tom

 

Good news.

I PM'd Steve about our concerns and he asked me to help Gary (the Gort) come up with a new SH classified vinyl grading FAQ. Any changes will be for vinyl only. If you have any further ideas, preferences (EX, VG++, etc.), or other specific concerns, now would be the time to post them here or you can PM me.

I will do my best to see that the new vinyl grading system works better for both buyers and sellers.

 

All (unsealed) vinyl should be play-graded. Looks don't mean a thing if it's pressed off-center or an otherwise worn-out or bad pressing.

Not that I've had any real bad experiences here...I'm more than satisfied for the most part, but every so often I get one where I feel the looks may have deceived the seller.

 

Here's what we have now:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/faq.php?faq=classifieds_policies#faq_classifieds_grading

How about something like this. Since the Goldmine scale is universally known and widely accepted I'd prefer to continue to use that as a guide. To help clarify what that guide says I would like to add to the SH classified grade descriptions. I would also like to add VG++ between M- and VG+, since Goldmine uses EX and VG+ interchangeably:

Proposed Vinyl FAQ:

We will be using the US Goldmine grading scale for Vinyl and not the UK/European version.

Please note that with the Goldmine grading scale (link below) there is a reference to audio quality under the grades of NM and G, but not for VG+. Please also note there is a reference to a grade between NM and VG+ called VG++.

http://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/record-grading-101

For our purposes, we will be including the grade VG++ to fill the gap between NM and VG+, just has been done with CD grading. We have also added a brief audio description to VG++ and VG+. All visual grading assumes a bare 100W bulb is used.

Sellers and buyers are encouraged to read the Goldmine link above for accurate grading descriptions. Sellers are encouraged to describe items in more detail when possible. Here is a rough guide to SH Classified Vinyl Grading:


Near Mint (NM or M-): Near perfect record and cover. No visible defects. No surface noise.

Very Good Plus Plus (VG++): Only a couple of very minor flaws (faint hairline, light scuff). No significant surface noise. No ring wear. No seam splits.

Very Good Plus (VG+): More signs of wear but still an excellent condition record. Any surface noise is at a bare minimum and never overpowers the music. Covers may show minor defects including very light ring wear.

Very Good (VG): More obvious wear. Significant surface noise evident on playing, especially in soft passages, and during a song's intro and fade. Ring wear and other defects evident.

Good (G): Worn. Significant surface noise throughout, scratches that will produce noise, but will play through without skipping.

Poor (P), or Fair (F): Worn out. Won't play through without skipping or repeating.


If the buyer or seller have a problem with how an item is represented, they are encouraged to PM each other before posting feedback in an attempt to reach a satisfactory agreement.

 

No feedback?

OK, here's another variation with more concise descriptions:


Proposed Vinyl FAQ

We will be using the US Goldmine grading scale for Vinyl and not the UK/European version.

Please note that the Goldmine grading scale has audio quality descriptions for NM, VG and G, but not for VG+. Please also note there is a reference to a grade between NM and VG+ called VG++:

http://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/record-grading-101

For our purposes, we will be including the grade VG++ to fill the gap between NM and VG+, just has been done with CD grading. We have also added a brief audio quality description to VG++ and VG+. All visual grading assumes a bare 100W bulb is used.

Sellers and buyers are encouraged to read the Goldmine link above for accurate grading descriptions. Sellers are encouraged to describe their items in more detail, including any audio issues, when possible. Here is a guide to SH Classified Vinyl Grading:

Near Mint (NM or M-): Near perfect record and cover. No visible flaws or defects (any slight production scuffs should be noted). No surface noise or other audible issues at normal listening volume.

Very Good Plus Plus (VG++): Only a very small number of minor flaws present (ex. a couple of faint hairlines, a light scuff). No surface noise or other audible issues at normal listening volume. No significant ring wear. No seam splits.

Very Good Plus (VG+): More slight signs of wear but still an excellent condition record that plays well. Any surface noise is very minimal and the record is still an enjoyable listen. Covers may show minor defects including very light ring wear.

Very Good (VG): More obvious wear. Surface noise evident on playing, especially in soft passages, and during a song's intro and fade but never overpowers the music. Ring wear and other defects evident.

Good (G): Worn. Significant surface noise throughout, scratches that produce noise, but will play through without skipping.

Poor (P), or Fair (F): Worn out. Won't play through without skipping or repeating.

 

Randy, thanks for taking the time to write up those proposed gradings! I slightly prefer the descriptions in post #42.

One thing. I feel that the Near Mint description should define records with "extremely minimal surface noise", or something to that effect. "No surface noise" is unrealistic. A buyer expecting no surface noise is sure to be dissatisfied. As Raunchnroll pointed out, all records make some sort of surface noise, and that may be more or less noticeable on different systems. You could play a just unsealed MFSL JVC vinyl, and there could still be a tiny surface sound, or the faintest tics or static. And that would be found the records with the most minimal surface noise ever made.

 

..

 

Thanks, that's why I added "at normal listening volumes" to NM and VG++ in post #43.

The fact is there will always be picky buyers, Vinyl is vinyl. It's not perfect. At best, it's near perfect. Hopefully, folks new to vinyl will figure that out.

I'm open to suggestions on how to make this work the best. We can add something like what you suggest (maybe to VG++) if folks feel the same way. However, my feeling is that a NM or M- LP is in fact a rare record. It should be held to the highest standard since Mint will not be used.

Gary has PM'd me and hopefully we will begin moving toward a solution that satisfies most SH forum buyers and sellers of LPs.

 

I prefer #43 but either one gets the idea across. Its a good workable grading system.

 

If we all understand that we are not using the European system, I dont understand why we cant use the word excellent or EX somewhere? Why the hesitation.....something better than VG++ but not NM, hence EX. the more grades the better, then there is less chance of mis-grading because you are not locked into either black or white....VG++ just sounds like it still is kinda weak, if you dont know the person you are buying from. On ebay I stay away. Obviously here its different since we basically trust each other.

Honestly this whole thread is pretty useless anyways, since there is nothing about the classifieds system right now that is messing with the universe in any way. WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?!?!

Just because someone randomly brought it up does not mean we need to overhaul the whole system! If thats the case then I will randomly bring up that we have too many beatles threads......you see my point? WHO cares? you dont like how something is graded or you have questions, you ask. simple

 

I like the grading system in post 43, it's clear and understandable to me.

 

i don't think any vinyl can be excellent. the first time out of the package there is noise when the stylus touches the platter, that, in itself, alters the intended sound.