Poll: What kind of DAC do you have/want?

I was always under the assumption that I wanted a DAC to be as quiet and as neutral as possible, and with all the DAC threads here, I may be in the minority.
When picking my current DAC, I did a lot of research and chose the Topping D50S. For the most part I am happy with it, but it is probably my weakest link in my chain.
Doing more research, I do like what I hear from the Denafrips line, but from all I hear (coloration) is primarily what these DAC's are doing.
I have never heard someone say, my new DAC is more neutral than my old one. Quieter, yes!
So at some point, are all DAC's just different (coloring)?
What says you?

 

I went from the D90 to a Denafrips Ares II. I find the latter is better in most respects, with exception of a very slight loss of midrange refinement in the Denafrips. That’s really nitpicking though, considering how much better the Denafrips is at “layering,” depth, and an impression of instrument separation. I wouldn’t say the Denafrips is “colored,” rather, it’s simply more engaging and 3-dimensional.

I’m still of the opinion that most Toppings are good DACs. I did prefer the D90 to the Chord Qutest after all. Though for my preferences, I can’t foresee myself ever returning to a delta-sigma DAC architecture having experienced the Ares.

 

The neutral that you think you want is a coloration.

Real sound has layering and separation and imaging and depth. Many of the so called neutral DACs have flat imaging and lack all that. That isn't what I would consider neutral.

 

I'll take the "color" if that's what we're forced to call it.

Fact is there is no such thing as "perfect" or "invisible." You can act like you have it or desire it. I'm sure some might say they desire a ruler flat frequency response. And if we all had the same ears and rooms and whatever, maybe that'd be ok.

But in the real world, we pick what sounds best to us, however that does or doesn't measure.

Edit - and the real reason I say this is because of the experience I and others have had with HQPlayer. Digital filters are nothing new. But upsampling, filtering, and noise shaping are all critically important to my ear, it turns out. And something like HQP lets me pick my own adventure there. And there's no getting around it - it's altering the signal.

Much like a phono cartridge - they don't all sound nearly the same, and no perfect one exists.

 

I think an aspiration for neutral should be the foundation of a good DAC but I love having the ability to adjust certain sonic aspects. This is why I use a Lampizator Atlantic TRP - it allows rolling lots of tubes, often most importantly the rectifier which really moves the needle on weight and impact. Most of the color I look for isn't really "color", it's imaging, soundstage, texture, weight, and impact. I think you can have these things, and even tweak them, while still maintaining neutral.

 

The idea that DACs are neutral is kinda silly to me.
It’s not like an amp or preamp
I mean yeah you can have a flat freq response but the chip is doing a bunch of filtering , conversion, then the analogue output.
As far as noise, I don’t think that is an issue with technology for the last 10+ years. Most DACs have a super low noise floor and going lower to me is nitpicking.

every DAC I’ve tried is different sounding. Some have bigger differences and others very very small differences.

I have the Marantz HD DAC1 and nothing has beat it yet for what I personally like.

still looking for a different DAC that will finally retire the Marantz.

just depends what you like.

 

Hi, I am trying to get a idea on what you mean by "quieter" in what sense is one DAC quieter than another ? and why is your current dac of choice the weakest link ? just curious thanks

 

Tough to vote. I went with neutral but being new to HQPlayer I'm sold on voicing the DAC as I see fit. My thought was neutral DAC seasoned with HQP, even if neutral doesn't exist.

 

I'm not an authority on this topic or anything but I tried to answer something like this in another topic - it's not so much "noise" like an audible hum or a tape hiss or anything of that sort. It's almost like a blurring of the outermost edges of sounds or instruments, especially higher frequencies, harmonics, and decay trails.

It's something you don't notice until it's gone. I noticed this "noise reduction" when I went from a Pi4 streamer with a very good PSU, to a Zen Stream which "measures" very quietly and with virtually no jitter. There were subtle musical cues and items toward the background of the music that gained more focus and realism, after I made the switch. I've tried both the A/B test and a longer term test and both bare this out, with Zen Stream being more refined and transparent.

That's the best I've got. And at no point did I think I needed to "fix" the Pi streamers I had. In fact they sounded great to me. Then Zen Stream (all of these "streamers" are really just HQ Player endpoints) showed me I still had a little more potential hidden back there.

Edit - and this isn't even in a DAC, it's before the thing. Sorry for the tangent, but I think it's contextually relevant

 

Yeah agreed for the noise.
I mean when most DACs go below 0.001% THD , where do you go from there??

I think you’re right. It’s the slight haze or smearing around instruments. And I mean it’s slight, but audible and noticeable.

 

I've settled on the Gustard Dac A18 for now and would've went for there latest flagship had it not been for the AKM fire. The sound is neutral indeed but has an organic midrange liquidity that doesn't give up a drop of transparency , it conveys weight and harmonic structure. This was not present in the D90 I tried before it and just could see myself living with it for long. Set the A18 to one of six filter settings ( to color the sound ,if you want to call it that) and you have a completely different presentation using the "Slow" filter setting and classical, jazz etc.. your favorite music will give you goosebumps like no other.

 

I think I get what your saying, than I again, I'm new to the whole Dac/ streamer thing. As a avid Cd user I only recently bought Dac/streamer (Auris BluME HD) and one thing I have noticed it sounds nice but has a very dry overall sound stage as compared to my CD player I do not subscribe to any streaming service but use it to stream my local jazz station I wonder if it is that way because of the media that is being used or because it is bluetooth and not WiFi, the quality of the onboard Dac or all mentioned

 

Neutrality. Give it to me straight. Haven't heard better than the Chord Hugo (though not questioning that there is, no doubt, better). Perfect balance of price, flexibility, and performance.

 

Interesting that the last three albums played I found that I liked a different filter for each. Guess I'm using the filters because I don't have tone controls.

 

I have many dac’s and switch them in and out often. My oldest one is an Adcom GFF600 and my newest one is a Topping D10. Each has a unique sound, but I could live with any one of them.

 

Ability to adjust - Color the sound, it's my music and I'll color it up any darn way I wish. . Seriously, any adjustment helps with my slight hearing loss.

 

Ha yup !

 

You didn't leave the option for none other than what already exists in one's equipment. That's my vote.

 

I want a new DAC

One that does what it should

One that won't sound too bad

One that won't sound too good

 

I have 2 older Dac's, one a Musical Design Dac-1 and a CAL Alpha. The Musical Design has what I would describe as neutral no emphasis in any area, and to me sounds right. The Alpha is more colored too me, but is fun to listen to and I can change the flavor with a tube swap. Right now I have NOS Mullard 12ax7's in and the tone is just awesome. If I put in the RCA cleartops the midrange falls back and the Bass and Treble are more pronounced. Great for Rock and Fusion. I guess I'm lucky to have both.

 

I'm using a Denon DVD-5000 I purchased used that wasn't working but the DAC still works on it.

I'm pleased with it. Guessing it's neutral.

 

I think one of the big factors in how a DAC sounds is the filter and filtering philosophy and filtering implementation that it uses. It's not obvious how a filter could change the tonality or sense of neutrality of a DAC. Because the filters are going to measure flat on a frequency response graph. Except for the slow roll-off style filters that roll off the very high frequencies. Us old guys (I'm including myself in that group) can't hear that high anyways so I don't consider that a significant factor in how I hear different filters.

Yet there is a difference in tonality and sense of neutrality with different filters. Why? You can experiment with filters using HQPlayer. The DAC stays the same. Same analog section of the DAC, same chip. Yet the tonality and sense of neutrality can change based on the filter choices in HQPlayer.

One way I think of this is filters can change the level of 3D imaging and change the density of the imaging and where the imaging is more dense. For example, a filter may cause the center of the imaging to sound more filled in and more dense than other filers. If the center of the imaging is more dense then that will affect the tonality of whatever is mixed to be in the center will seem more filled in. With rock that means the lead vocal is going to sound like it is more filled in. The vocal is midrange. So that means the midrange sounds like it is more filled in and more prominent. You won't see that midrange emphasis in a frequency response graph, but your ears will hear it if you're playing music where a vocal is centered dead center in the imaging.

There are other things going on as well with different filters that can affect the impression of neutrality. Phase response is one, especially for bass. The phase response of a filter can affect how well bass is layered or imaged. Some filters will make the bass have less imaging depth but have more punch. Some filters will give the bass depth and imaging transparency, but will have less punch in the bass. If you hear differences in the bass when changing filters then the differences are likely mostly due to phase behavior.

 

I think it’s cool and fascinating how DAC technology is advancing and they are really looking into it.
Pretty exciting stuff

 

I mean that all DAC's now are super quiet, so that's off the table as far as difference between DAC's.

My Topping D50S is (probably) my weakest link of the equipment I own.
I am in love with my amp & preamp, and will probably NEVER replace them.
My turntable (Technics SL1200MK3D) is (for me) as good as i will ever need.
My Rotel tribute CD11 Tribute is also all that i need.
All digital audio is run thru a Rasberry Pi4 (PI2AES) & is a huge improvement over any PC or mac I ever had connected.
Which leads me to my DAC. The only piece that I am not 100% sure about, and the only piece of equipment that (I feel) could use an upgrade.

 

I have Schiit Bifrost and would want something from dCS.