Power Cables... Do they really matter?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by PinkIsTheSky, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    +1. Take your time!! The most important lesson I learned, get to know the sound before you start adding or changing out new things. Sometimes it takes months, sometimes it takes a year or more. Get to know your room acoustics and how your speaker placement reacts to that, etc....
     
    dennem, MGW, Rick58 and 2 others like this.
  2. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    Have bought some and made some and was unable to hear the benefit. IC's and speaker cable, yes I can discern differences. I attribute my inability to hear the effect in PC changes to the great design and execution of the power supply and power filtering within the audio components in my systems.
     
    wgriel, Leroyd, timind and 1 other person like this.
  3. Pastafarian

    Pastafarian Forum Resident

    Well Barry Diament and if you've been here long enough you'll know he's someone who's held in great respect.
    Barry Diament Audio
     
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  4. Oliver Meyer

    Oliver Meyer In Audio Heaven Up Here

    Location:
    Virginia Beach
    Room treatments are the way to go if you want instant noticable improvement's.
    There's several threads here and at audio karma that will help.
    Treat the corners first is my advice.
     
    kyouki, G E, Gibsonian and 1 other person like this.
  5. amgradmd

    amgradmd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    In my experience, power cords matter, somewhat. To my ears power conditioning is more important, but I guess you could lump good power cords in with the "conditioning", so to speak. I would argue the single most important component with regards to SQ of my system, apart from speakers, is my PS Audio P10 power regenerator. I bought one with they every intention of returning it if I didn't hear a difference. I HOPED I didn't hear a difference, actually. But it took all of 10 seconds to realize everything was better. More dynamic, better imaging, less congested, lower noise floor. All of that. And not in a subtle way either. I've actually done measurements with an SPL meter using my phono input to see the difference. Basically I kept my tonearm cradled and turned my preamp up to fairly loud levels at the limit of what I listen to at home and measured the dB with and without the P10. Basically in my place, which doesn't have great isolation, I get baseline noise level of around 42 dB when measured at my listening spot. Then at high volume, and without P10, I got something like 52 dB. Then with P10 I get a little over half the difference, so about 45-46 dB or so. So a significant, measurable difference. And it sounds better, as I said.

    But what about power cords? I think, by far, the most important PC goes into my P10. You must have a robust chord with grounding (duh! But more on that). That's the only cord I could A:B a difference, on a single cord swap. Adding others is subtle, and difficult for me to discern, but I suspect they make a difference in summation of all components, if not individually. I would say that if you find some hum in your system, you probably have ground loops and the loops might be attenuated with 2 prong plugs. Talk to Captain at Audio Envy about this. He makes fantastic PC's, especially for the price, and recommends 2 prong plugs to the components from the power conditioner for this very reason. This is just my experience guys. I really wish this didn't make a difference, but there it is and I can't ignore it now, so I deal with it.
     
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  6. Fruff76

    Fruff76 L100 Classic - Fan Club President

    Are there any equipment manufacturers that collaborate with, or use these specialty power cords?
     
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  7. plextor

    plextor Forum Resident

    To a lesser extent than other things but yes, power cables matter, pretty much everything matters in building a system.

    An audio system is the sum of it's parts and a better performing system will be balanced throughout.
     
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  8. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    I believe some companies provide higher quality cords with gear. Some other companies simply don’t provide power cables with higher end gear, assuming a user at that investment level will already have a preferred cable.
     
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  9. Depending on one's situation (home vs. rental) that might not be possible, and even if one ones a home depending on the layout it can get costly to replace a 15 amp line with a 20 amp line. Assuming the equipment needs less than 15 amps peak, have you found a 20 amp line makes a difference? Assuming every line regardless of amperage is dedicated.

    Adding that I have a room with a dedicated 20 amp line and a dedicated 15 amp line and haven't heard a difference (so it's the exact same system, in the exact same room/placement).
     
  10. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    The power cable that came with my new Parasound amp seems to be of excellent quality. On your A21, do other owners recommend upgrading the cable? I would suggest you invest in a good power filter/ac enhancer type unit. Something that will filter out noise and protect your whole system. And then plug that unit into the dedicated line you are working on.
     
  11. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I have my doubts that the power cables you get for $80 a pair are going to be significantly better than the stock cables that came with your gear. Stock power cables are typically pretty decent for the gear with which they are included, so IMO it’s only worth doing if you go big (which is why I haven’t done so yet). I wouldn’t bother with power cable upgrades unless you want to budget multiple times that amount, but on the other hand it can’t hurt to try something returnable and see if I’m wrong, right?
     
    timind likes this.
  12. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    Right! The OP's new Parasound Halo gear probably did not come with a deficient power cable that hurts their performance IMO.
     
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  13. amgradmd

    amgradmd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Most all cabling hurts performance. It's just a matter of degree. The real question is how much would the OP be willing to spend to noticeably hurt performance to a lesser extent?
     
    JNTEX likes this.
  14. amgradmd

    amgradmd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I would agree. I think that to really see a difference with PC's the OP should get PC's for the entire chain to see if there is a difference. Then compare to just trying with the amp, or whatever so see if the difference holds up. Audio Envy and Anti Cables both make excellent and affordable power cords that he could audition. If he can't notice a difference with entire system with nice PC's, send em' back! My $0.02
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  15. MattHooper

    MattHooper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    You will find many replies lauding the benefits of high end AC cables over stock cables.

    For some counter-balance:

    The Skeptic's Case against high priced audiophile AC cables (and the side on which you'll tend to find most electrical engineers who know what they are talking about), is along these lines:

    1. Any well designed piece of equipment, e.g. a power amp, will have taken the issue of "power noise" in to account. Quote from an audioholics article on this issue of power cables cleaning up noise: "This sort of claim ignores two critical considerations. First, the power cord simply is not often a source of noise introduction, and if the amp has a properly-designed power supply it should be well-nigh impossible to get noise into the system through the power cord. The transformer, in particular, with its extremely high inductance, tends to act as a strong choke against high-frequency noise."

    This is why standard competently built power cords have worked just find for audio gear, for decades and decades.

    2. The claims and marketing for high priced power cords is fishy. You get big claims made on some technical "problem" the cable manufacturer points to that they claim to "solve," and yet what you don't get is any relevant objective measurements in support of these claims. Instead, it's merely claimed "here's a problem we solved" and the "evidence" just boots to marketing and anecdotes and the type of audio show demos that are well known to be problematic. (Typically the salesman primes the audience to hear differences).

    3. The "evidence" for the sonic benefits virtually always comes from anecdote and subjective claims from audiophiles, in the form "I put it in to my system, heard a difference, therefore the claims for the cable's performance are true!" This is well known to be an unreliable method of vetting such claims, due to all the forms of bias (sighted and otherwise) involved. Keep in mind that this SAME type of evidence and "testing" is used to "verify" every single dubious claim anyone ever came up with in audio, including teeny brass bowls placed in a room to change the sound, magic pebbles placed on equipment, marking CDs with green markers....there is almost no claim you can come up with that won't be "validated" by some portion of audiophiles in this manner.

    This does not mean that expensive power cords are not making a sonic difference in some systems, but it DOES mean that the evidence for the claims tend to be of an unreliable nature.
    (Like flipping a coin to see if it's sunny outside. "Hey, it flipped heads, it must be sunny outside." Well, it may well be sunny outside, but that basis for "knowing" it's sunny outside isn't a reliable one).

    Now, none of this means you personally have to get all sciencey about buying high end AC cables. People should buy whatever they want. And if you are truly curious it may be worth getting hold of some lauded AC cables to try in your system.

    And then, it won't be unusual for you to "hear a difference." The question then is how sure, how careful, do YOU want to be about making that inference? If the mere act of putting the cable in your system and you believing you hear a difference is good enough for you to part with the money, that's your call.

    But if you care more deeply about the truth of the matter, you will acknowledge that it's quite possible you could be imagining the sonic difference via any number of well known biases (which include expectation bias, but which are not limited to expectation bias).

    So you could have someone help you set up a blind test - have them swap between the stock power cord and the audiophile power cord, without you knowing which is which, and then see if you can, in fact, by hearing alone, identify any difference. That can be quite eye-opening. I have done so myself, e.g. testing Shunyata AC cables, where differences I was "sure" were there vanished between the expensive cables and a stock power cable when I didn't actually know which one was being used.

    Cheers.
     
  16. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    When it comes to the cabling that actually carries the audio signal, I tend to agree. But the PC does not carry any audio signal. It provides power to the amplifier and that's it. The noise floor of a Parasound Halo amp is inaudible if working correctly. I do think good line protection and conditioning (RF) is important though and will clean up bad/noisy power and spikes/surges.

    That being said, I might try one of the Pangea PC's down the line and try to prove myself wrong.
     
  17. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I think cables are always a “try and see, make sure you can return them” proposition. Theoretical explanations are great, and I appreciate that we live in a time when we have a thorough understanding of electricity. However, if you try something and it does sound better, why convince yourself it doesn’t sound better?

    I just can’t imagine Parasound is using power cables below the quality of those that retail for $80 a pair, though. I would guess improvement, if any, would be quite marginal.
     
    FunnyChap likes this.
  18. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    On this thread? Who would *do* such a thing?!
     
    Gary likes this.
  19. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    I'm guessing the power cord that came with your Parasound amp is a nice 5-6 ft, 14 gauge power cable. Hard to believe any cable costing less than a couple hundred dollars is built significantly better. Buying an $88 cable with a nice jacket and fancy looking IEC plugs isn't going to be an upgrade IMO.

    Spend that money on room treatments instead. Bass trapping and reflection taming can make a very noticeable difference.
     
  20. amgradmd

    amgradmd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I see your point but would argue that anything short of a direct line from your own utility pole is a compromise of some sort in power line noise, capacitance, current, etc. Apparently that's a big thing in Japan, paying huge sums of money for your own audiophile utility pole which is connected to nothing else. They claim it makes a huge difference!
     
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  21. displayname

    displayname Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    Thank you for offering the alternate viewpoint in a tasteful manner, and ending with the suggestion of a blind test. This side of the argument is often represented with a very different tone, so I wanted to call out that I appreciated the way you represented your viewpoint.
     
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  22. Boltman92124

    Boltman92124 Go Padres!!

    Location:
    San Diego
    Right. I've got all sorts of appliances bouncing around my 45 year old house with old wiring. And I have blown fuses on my panel multiple times. But how will a power cord help? A good AC conditioner with RF filtering and surge protection seems the way to go.
     
    timind likes this.
  23. wgriel

    wgriel Forum Resident

    Location:
    bc, canada
    Yes - I did this with a friend a few years back to compare some expensive after market power cables with the stock in his system (a very good system btw). In blind testing, neither of us could hear a difference which surprised me - I expected we would find differences based on some of the rave reviews in this forum and elsewhere.

    Now that doesn't mean that another system in a different home couldn't get some benefit, but we concluded that in his system an aftermarket power cord was a waste of money with regards to sonic improvements.

    So with that, I would echo @MattHooper and recommend testing some power chords, especially if you can do it with a friend and see if you can hear differences/improvements when you don't know which is which.
     
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  24. amgradmd

    amgradmd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I agree with you. Power conditioning is the more important thing. Still, the umbilical cord to the conditioner/regenerator is also important. Without adequate current from the grid, you are handicapping yourself. And that leads me to another point -one thing I think is important in evaluating a power cord is to assess dynamics, especially during high load. I think many people put in a new PC, listen to a few chill jazz records (or equivalent), don't hear a difference, scrap the new expensive PC, and move on. I think an RCA cable or speaker cables show their colors more consistently, but a PC can definitely make a difference, in dynamics and bass especially, in my experience.
     
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  25. MattHooper

    MattHooper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    *Bro Fist*

    Indeedy! If I do a blind test of power cords in my system the conclusion shouldn't (and can't) be "therefore no power cords make a difference in any other system." But at least I have some evidence for or against the prospect that they are making an audible difference in MY system. It's just a nice thing to have in the tool kit for making decisions on where to spend money.
     
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