Pre-dusting high quality routine after wet/ultrasonic cleaned LPs

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Jenn2021, Nov 15, 2021.

  1. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    I've scrupulously wet cleaned vinyl LPs and they have happily bounced back to life.
    Now that they are clean, I made a discovery that my old methods of pre-clean before play are not working well.

    1. Anti-Static brush
    2. Discwasher Revised

    I left the records out too long after the wet clean and dust accumulated. I kept a strong flashlight parallel and even with the surface of the record to see the dust. The anti-static brush did not pick up the dust. The Groovewasher wants me to spray the record, then wipe... I'm not OK with that. I have been told the fabric is 'not' a one-way direction like the original Discwasher, so it will not grab as well. I tried a light dusting of G2 fluid on the fabric, followed by a light brushing..., barely took it off.

    So, could someone more experienced in high end pre-play dusting please recommend something that will remove and not push dust into the grooves of a freshly wet cleaned (or ultrasonically cleaned) LP ?

    Thank you much.
     
  2. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    As I wrote in the book - this is all I have done in the past - Using the Kinetronics™ Tiger anti-static lint-free microfiber cloth, a smaller piece cut from the large cloth used as a swipe (just lightly touching the record surface) to essentially brush/dust the record to remove surface lint and particulate without penetrating the groove. Also, the orange color of the cloth allows easy observation of any fibers that may be deposited from the cloth.
     
  3. ubiknik

    ubiknik Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago, IL USA
    I use this type of brush per it's directions:
    https://hifiheaven.net/shop/Music-H...W6QoqnscwtHyxj9ZfhZ69V3pwB2q2kjxoCi5IQAvD_BwE
    Then I turn the TT on and while the record spins I lightly catch any dust/particles with an old record cloth that has been dampened with a mix of 90% or greater alcohol and distilled water by dragging over the surface of the record as it spins, on the side away from the tonearm with the lp surface spinning away from you.
    I give it a couple of drags with the moist cloth to pull off anything the carbon fiber brush left.

    I do needle drops constantly and this method works extremely well.
     
  4. brockgaw

    brockgaw Forum Resident

    I used an USRC machine on all my LPs and zap them before play with a Zerostat. I have never had a problem with dust using anti-static sleeves. Of course your environment is a lot drier than mine.
     
  5. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    I don't dust the record at all before play, but I do use a dust bug to keep the stylus free of it as it plays. Even if all the dust were somehow removed before play there will still be 20mins of accumulation before the stylus reaches the end of side. The inner grooves are already a challenge to track properly, so keeping them clean all the way to the end only makes sense to me.

    Hudson Hifi Record Cleaning Arm Review - Hifi Chicken - Hifi Reviews

    A few tips for anyone exploring this route: First, this is not a record cleaner....too much dust will lift the bristles and cause the arm to skate inward. The dust bug only works properly with records that are already clean. 2nd, the brush needs to be kept meticulously clean for the same reason. I use a small, folding sticky roller for this after each play, rolling it under the brush head to pick up the dust; the sticky roller grips and holds the dust without flinging it back into the air. 3rd, placement of the bug is important...I find a slight underhang improves tracking; the front of the brush should just barely graze the spindle. Lastly, try it w/o the ground wire....mine works better that way and doesn't charge the record.
     
    Andy Saunders likes this.
  6. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Sweden
    Get one of these:
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Technocentral

    Technocentral Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    "the book"?
     
  8. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    @Technocentral - see https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/neil-antins-aqueous-cleaning-of-lps-2nd-edition.1064753/#post-26280352
    @Jenn2021 - I've never been happy with record brushes, either as a preliminary step in deep cleaning or as a method of keeping the record debris free post cleaning. I do my best to control environment--dedicated room, HEPA air cleaner in the cleaning area, cleaning and covering platter when not playing as well as cleaning the area around the turntable. There are dust motes visible to the eye floating in the air that you can see in the light at certain angles. I also find that certain aftermarket inners shed. I have been using an air puffer like the one @Leonthepro shows, as well as a piece of silk for more stubborn flecks that attach to a clean record. I also did buy the Tiger Cloth that Neil @pacvr recommended.
    For any pre-cleaning step, I do not want to effectively grind in any surface contaminants by brushing or an applicator even during a first wet clean. Thus, I do an air puffer for most of the surface stuff, and a mild pre clean using a soft brush and mild cleaning fluid as a first step, using a point nozzle vacuum to lift off the fluid. Then I get down to business with a deeper clean, using a stronger cleaner, rinse and ultrasonic.
     
    Leonthepro and Technocentral like this.
  9. Technocentral

    Technocentral Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    Sounds like a full time job Bill!!
     
  10. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    I agree Bill. I am new to wet cleaning, Neil has converted me and I am a happy goat. I too can't use a dry brush (or any brush besides wet clean) on a record. I have been dusting camera gear for so many years and never had any anti-static availability. I am finding that after a previous wet clean and removed from the anti-static sleeve, if I treat the record properly with the Zerostat III before play, I can properly (no shaking of the can, pre burst in the air not on the record, then maintain upright vertical angle and use quick short bursts) blast off dust from the record using a 800 lumen flashlight held across the record from the edge in towards the label, I can see the dust blowing off. I know this is a risky action since if you are not careful, a blast of unknown chemical will shoot out on to the record, but I am v-e-r-r-r-y careful. If I ever were to use any brushing again, I would target only the removal of surface dust with a lightly sprayed distilled water on a fabric with a one-way angle similar to the original Discwasher. I have not found such a fabric yet, probably due to a patent. The Tiger cloth for me is another potential to grind something in to the record, I'll have to experiment more with it before deciding.

    Take care.
     
    Bill Hart likes this.
  11. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Please read the can of 'air' label carefully Everything You Need to Know About Air Duster… But Were Afraid to Ask | Techspray. They all mostly use a refrigerant that now has some kind of bitterant because people were inhaling and getting high. The refrigerant that was being used was R134a 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane” or CAS #811-97-2 which is not flammable but has a high global warming potential (GWP). R134a is being replace with low GWP alternate refrigerants - safe from a toxicity standpoint, but they can be mildly flammable; example TS-1673_ENG_TDS.pdf (techspray.com).
     
    Bill Hart likes this.
  12. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Hello again.

    Would the use of a humidifier in the room help to keep dust down or is the amount not significant enough ?
    Wow, there are many to choose from Here
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  13. dwilpower

    dwilpower Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glasgow Scotland
    It might not clean your vinyl but it'll certainly tickle your fancy...
     
  14. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    dwilpower,
    Yes, thank you I have found the 'rocket' blower you mentioned does a 'decent' job, but does not jettison the dust into the stratosphere like the compressed air does :) ,
    it does get expensive. I just bought 3 cans for ~20.00 at Office Depot last night. I used to be able to get these for ~13.00 at Fry's (Gone).
    Office Depot® Brand Cleaning Dusters Canned Air, 10 Oz, Pack of 3

    I am researching some way to replace the compressed air, mayble with something like this...
    Computer Air Duster, Say Goodbye to Compressed Air Can, Cordless Air Duster,

    Not sure if it will be as strong as the compressed air.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
  15. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic Autodidact Debater

    Location:
    Sweden
    Works for me.
     
  16. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Humidity will have only a marginal impact on dust and if you are not careful, will increase dust depending on the quality of water you use. The better benefit of a humidifier is the reduction in static; and your want a minimum of 35% as well as your own comfort. If you do not have a humidity meter, I use this one - Amazon.com: AcuRite Pro Humidity Meter & Thermometer with Touch Activated Backlight, White, there are others.

    When you use your compressed air - which is refrigerant - how clean do you think the gas is??? There is high purity dusters such as Microsoft Word - TDS_ES1020.docx (specialized.net) that is filtered to 0.2 micron but its $21/can.

    When you take a clean record and put on the turntable what do you see with just white light - you should not see anything. If you take your UV light and shine on the record before play - what do you see? You will likely see some fibers/lint fluorescing. These are 'on' the record. These are what you want to remove. These are heavy particles that shed from the anti-static sleeves (they are not perfectly clean) and just drop out of the air. The really small particles <5 microns do not drop out of the air quickly and once the record is spinning its sets up enough air motion above to minimize/prevent desposition.

    I would not worry about the incidental tiny particles. What forms in the groove can be inconsequential if it is very small and dry. It becomes like very dry powder snow. As the record is rotating the powder becomes inconsequential to the stylus, it just flies around. Now add a carbon fiber brush that gets into the groove and the fibers while stronger than steel length-wise and brittle cross-wise and they shear and now you are adding particles. If the record groove has cleaner residue - the fine powder collects and forms essentially a polishing compound or just sludge.

    If your record is clean and your handling/maintenance of cleanliness practices are good, the stylus after hours of play should be clean except for an occasional single fiber and maybe some powdery type dust that is easily removed.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  17. bionic

    bionic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal
    So this is a better solution than the good ol' cf brush?
     
  18. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    For me if 'has' been, but in the USA its cheap, you often can buy for $15USD. But its not perfect - the edges are not finished so you need to fold so the unfinished edges do not catch the record. But, I do not have much of any static issues, and as I wrote in book,

    "VI.8.d A simple observation of a carbon fiber or Thunderon® record brush with bright white light or UV blacklight at 30 to 45-degree angle can observe that the brushes often only move the dust. This is consistent with the NASA/TM—2011-217231, report on Evaluation of Brushing as a Lunar Dust Mitigation Strategy for Thermal Control Surfaces (49) that evaluated the effectiveness and performance of various brush materials and designs to remove dust from thermal control paint or aluminized thermal control surface. The report summarized that “Although there was only one carbon bristle brush tested, it had by far the poorest performance.”. The NASA study also tested Thunderon®. The Thunderon® was in laboratory conditions effective in removing dust from the aluminized thermal control surface, but not effective in removing dust from thermal control paint surface.".

    Truth be told, I am currently not using the Tiger cloth to swipe the record. I am experimenting with an alternate method that uses no brushes and no cloths, but instead is based on the triboelectric properties of a particular material. Still working the details of routine use, but the Tiger cloth is still in-use, but not for the record. Details to follow...
     
  19. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I did the same routine, until I couldn’t fight static..then I took a different approach

    After the wet cleaning and before playing I use a compressed air ion-gun ( as I was already equipped with compressor and moisture separation filter) gun cost less than a zerostat.

    then all the dust / fluf from the residual static from the sleeve gets blown away
    The real treat then is the ultrasonic umidifier blowing a light stream of positive ions above the record while playing,made from a solution consisting of baby fabric softener (paraben free dye free etc, witch hazel extract (no oil!) de ionised water
    the result is no static and no static build up while playing with only free falling dust only on surface .
    After play a quick air gun touch up ..back in the sleeve

    to be noted that now the fluff and dust particles get attached to the plastic part of the cart basically leaving the vinyl as it play to my initial surprise..but now I know is no in the grooves!
    I don’t use a cloth or anti static brush that I hated them for pushing the crap back into a clean groove
    Probably my method will make some people cringe but it solved all of my headaches...while enjoying dust free static free playback even below 30% humidity (of course there’s always the odd falling spec but that comes with vinyl loving world)
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  20. FuzzyNightmares

    FuzzyNightmares Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Oregon
    Humidity controlled rooms? Come on… this is getting out of hand. I’ve seen several cleaning/maintenance of vinyl threads pop up recently and this one seems the most outrageous. I’m still waiting on everything to arrive but have just invested $5-6k into a system, and threads like this are making me regret my decision. This isn’t the damn Mona Lisa, there has to be an easier, more sustainable way to care for and maintain your records than this thread would suggest :thumbsdow
     
    bever70 likes this.
  21. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    anti static compressed air gun ..same principle of anti static fan but with the advantage of blowing away particles while reducing static
     
  22. bever70

    bever70 It's all about the soundstage

    Location:
    Belgium
    Lots of ocd's around here. Ignore them, use your own common sense instead, simple as that ;).
     
    Dennis Metz and FuzzyNightmares like this.
  23. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    No one is talking about humidity controlled rooms, only adding humidity during the very dry winter months. Otherwise, whole house humidifiers are quite common Whole House Humidifier Pros & Cons Explained (homeairadvisor.com) and humidifier_factsheet.pdf (epa.gov).
     
  24. GryphonForsell

    GryphonForsell Active Member

    Location:
    NJ
    A proper ocd setup would entail using an actual "clean room" for one's listening room.
     
    bever70 likes this.
  25. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Pretty sure that the humidifiers with ionizers, the ionizer produces negative ions - example Humidifier with Ionizer CA-602 New - Air Purifiers Air Cleaners Ionizers – Clean Air Optima - Air purifiers, air purification, air cleaner, home air purifiers, air cleaners, air filters. Most small particles are positive charged, so negative ions do somewhat what is stated - "Negative ions cling themselves to dust particles, microorganisms and other unwanted particles in the air and connect them to each other. The particles get heavier than air, fall onto the ground...'.

    Most liquid fabric softeners will contain cationic and nonionic surfactants - such as Baby Fabric Softener - Vegan I ATTITUDE (attitudeliving.com); the last ingredient the green-tea is a minor oil, but when removed the cationic and nonionic surfactants are what does the work. If the record is coated with a micron-thick layer of cationic and nonionic surfactants, the cationic surfactant being positive charge along with absorbing moisture from the air forms a layer of ionic moisture on the record that then acts to dissipate/prevent static charge. This is not that much different from those that use cationic surfactants in their DIY cleaning solutions such as HEPASTAT 256 which is intended to do the same thing - leave a layer of cationic surfactant residue.

    However, FWIW - the record if it has static is negatively charged. Your compressed air ion gun is a commonly used item in industry - Technical Guide - STATIC REMOVERS (IONIZERS) (panasonic.biz).

    Just some thoughts
     

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