Pre-dusting high quality routine after wet/ultrasonic cleaned LPs

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Jenn2021, Nov 15, 2021.

  1. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Yeah, an ISO-5/Class 100 should do it - Cleanroom Classifications (clean-rooms.org) complete with the anti-static NASA-blue lab coat :biglaugh: . Not sure about the acoustics. However, check-out the 'normal' number of particles in standard room air; 293,000 >5 um. This is one of those areas where it is very easy to go down the rabbit hole.
     
  2. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    I understand your concern on the cleanliness of the compressed air. There is a risk/reward benefit if I am diligent not shaking the can, pre-discharge burst, careful to keep the can level to avoid any chemical discharging. Your cleaning process is working wonders for me and rekindled my enjoying vinyl listening. The biggest pain in the butt now is to try and reduce the static and or dust... Las Vegas is a huge dust bowl with winds frequently over 40 mph, all kinds of dust from who-knows-where gets in every nook and cranny. The zerostat 3 is not cutting the mustard, I can't justify paying almost 400.00 for the Destat III although it seems to work well in this video. There has got to be a more economical way (still searching).

    Regarding the white light: The trick is to use a light strong enough, and parallel enough to the record to show dust. I bought the UV light you recommended, a useful addition but not a substitute for me. Here is a photo after 5 minutes showing dust with the white light here. I can see all the dust, scratches, scuffs, etc.

    Many thanks for your ongoing passion and expertise.
     
  3. bever70

    bever70 It's all about the soundstage

    Location:
    Belgium
    Nah, a "cleaning room" for the "clean room" for the listening room ;)!
     
  4. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I mist a carbon fiber brush with distilled water. Hold the brush about 8-12 inches from the atomizer (a decent atomizer, not an old Windex bottle), hit it with two to four pumps, and then use the brush on the album for 2-3 spins.

    The very small amount of water on the brush helps it hold onto anything it hits, and kills any static.

    The brush will be completely dry before the next side is ready. Just knock the bristles with an old credit card to clean them, reapply water, brush the 2nd side, drop the stylus.
     
  5. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    To be specific is not an AIR PURIFIER is a small dc powered ultrasonic humidifier . I knew my method was going to raise eyebrows..like everything new or unusual ..fabric softener is same as dryers sheets positively charged and I don’t use tea, I use witch hazel extract pharmaceutical grade that is not oil or oily..it just works there is no static at the end of the playing and the records are not dusty wet or oily..there is most crap in commercials record cleaning solutions!...you wouldn’t put that on your newborn baby
     
  6. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    WRT to static:
    If you are using a platter mat, what material is it? Some platter mats such as felt are notorious for developing static.

    What is your platter material and is your platter/spindle grounded?

    Try this very cheap humidifier - take a small glass, put a clean sponge in it and fill with DIW but leave the top of the sponge exposed and place in the vicinity (within 1-foot) of the turntable. As the DIW evaporates the sponge wicks and it can raise the humidity near the table by about 5-6% maybe more at your very low humidity.

    WRT to particles you are seeing,

    Is that after 5 min while waiting to dry? Is so, that is pretty normal. I see the same. I just lightly dust/swipe (no pressure) with the Kinetronics cloth before sleeving.

    Make sure the platter and/or mat are clean. The platter/mat can be a major source of particles. I use this silicone roller on the platter mat only; it cost only $10 when I bought it - Amazon.com: 4"/6''/8''/12'' Silicone Manual Dust Removal Stickys Roller Anti-Static Cleaner Tool(4") : Health & Household; there is this which now is a better deal - Amazon.com: in The Groove Record Cleaner Roller- Liquidless, Reusable, Washable, No Residue, Removes Smudges & Dusts, Long-Lasting, Anti-Static, Anti-Scratch - Vinyl Record Surfaces : Electronics.
     
  7. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Just to clarify I didn’t invent the item, just created a routine with what is available in order to avoid that awful step in vinyl playback that is the “ANTI-static carbon brush” that pushes whichever particles present in the record around or more into the grooves ..
    .. sweeping only move the rubbish somewhere else
     
  8. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Thank-you for the detail regarding the DC powered ultrasonic humidifier - any further details - web-site?

    Dryer sheets work on the same principle - the positive charge is obtained from the cationic surfactant - example - diversey_snuggle_blue_sparkle_dryer_sheets.pdf (webstaurantstore.com); the "Quaternary Ammonium Compound" is a cationic surfactant. Positive charge cationic surfactants are the backbone of fabric softeners. I only provided a quick example that just so happened to have - tea tree oil which is not an active ingredient.
     
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  9. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    im really bad with links or web related tasks ..I didn’t keep up with time I suppose I’ll try to find a way to send something your way..if I can’t, you’ll find that are those type you’ll find at spa or beauty centres as aromatherapy..I know they use the ultrasonic one opposed to the one with the cotton swab type because they don’t clog with usage of oily essence so if used with non oil products work even better..Tibet Mountain Ultrasonic Oil Diffuser - Wood Grain . ..I manage it !!..this is the one I use ,just for the fact that the I could attach a 90 degree copper pipe in to the opening so that the stream goes horizontally to the record surface instead of going up
     
  10. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Answers;
    • Platter Mat = None, considering adding a rubber mat, Turntable is grounded
    • Platter = Acrylic
    • Particles = Waiting to dry after a wet clean
    • Roller = Will buy & try. Whoa... you bought it for 10.00, it's' now 24.95. If you had said it was
      safe to use on the record, I would have rolled it on, seems to good to be true.
     
  11. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Acrylic and the record can be a problem with static. The two materials are pretty wide on the triboelectric series - the acrylic is low negative and the record (PVC) is high negative so the record is subject to developing static. Record mats are a whole other subject with a wide variety of opinions and experiences. For low cost, many people like the Pro-ject cork mat - Pro-Ject - Cork It Platter Mat | Shop Music Direct or the cork&rubber Pro-Ject - Cork & Rubber it Platter Mat (musicdirect.com). Just search the forum for turntable mats - plenty to read. Not knowing your table, note that adding a mat affects the cartridge vertical tracking angle (VTA), some tables can easily adjust VTA, others not so easy or at all.

    As far as the particles on the record, how are using your HEPA air filter? You said previous you were using the Spin Clean cotton cloths for drying, and you did not see any particles. So, these are particles that drop out of the air in 5 min. Those particles you see are at least 50 microns - those are big particles; the HEPA air filter should easily take those out of the air. Keep in mind that you may be the source - cotton clothing, long hair etc. can all produce lots of particles. These are all the good reasons you do not want to leave the record out for extended periods. Otherwise, don't let them drive you crazy, the particles are 'on' the record not 'in' the groove. A quick swipe or blast of 'duster air' can remove.

    I actually paid $8, Amazon changes prices on some items hourly. For the roller, after it builds up enough particles, rinse with tap water and light rub with your fingers to remove the particles and then spray with DIW to rinse off the tap water and let air dry.
     
  12. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Neil,

    I don't have a high end turntable, started with a Project Debut Pro, sent it back and then got a Fluance 85. It's not a Technics SL-10, but it does the job blasting through the mixer with the other microphones. I didn't want to go down the Rabbit Hole for spending on turntables since there are too many LPs I would like to own but simply don't exist or a not near mint.

    Regarding: Platter mat - Unfortunately I do not have VTA available, wish I did. I am limited to the choices of mats from Fluance, I really don't like the acrylic. Fluance says their mat will not vary the VTA enough to affect the quality... who knows. My first thoughts would be for rubber since there is no possibility of material flaking off.

    Regarding: Dust particles - The Hepa filter works great if you put it in the right place in the room so the air flow doesn't go right over the records, which is great until the HVAC turns on and blows all kinds of dust from the outside. I have to 'not' play records when the air from the fires in California reach up here. I don't leave the records out for hours after you brought that to my attention. Yes, particles do blow off, but the static is contributing to an almost immediate replacement. I don't know enough about the anti-static devices and how long they are able to keep the static electricity off, but if it was 30 minutes, it would help immensely since the particles blow/wipe off very easily where there isn't a charge. I noticed smaller particles accumulating more in areas of the record that have scuffing.

    Regarding: Humidity - After reading the posts, seems like trying to raise the humidity to 35% may or may not help. The HVAC is the real problem, most here know what a horrible scam most of the big companies practice. None of the 5 big HVAC companies knew how to filter dust from when the unit blows air from the outside, but it would solve most of the dust problem.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
  13. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Per the table manual - reference_series_turntables_user_manual.pdf (fluance.com) it shows that it comes with a rubber mat? So you are not using the rubber mat? If so, try it. If the sound is still good, you can always replace with a different mat so long as it's the same or less thickness.

    What size air filter does your HVAC air handler use? There are 4" wide high performance air cleaners/filters that can be installed in the air inlet duct to the air handler. Aprilaire is one of the best. Their series 2000 with MERV 13 filter would go a long way in possibly helping your Whole-House Air Purifiers (aprilaire.com). Stay away from the MERV 16, too much pressure-drop.

    Neil
     
  14. Andy Saunders

    Andy Saunders Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    You get a free Parrott with this item.:edthumbs:
     
  15. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Regarding mat: - From the manual;
    Rubber Turntable Mat ( RT82/RT83/RT84 Only)

    My model with the Acrylic Platter, Fluance RT85 does not come with a mat.

    Regarding: HVAC - Thank you, will follow up with a new Company and test them with this information.

    Best regards.
     
  16. LewDawg

    LewDawg Active Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Have you tried a suede brush ?
     
  17. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Thanks for the link, do you have a link for the fabric softener you are using or the label name and manufacturer?
     
  18. GryphonForsell

    GryphonForsell Active Member

    Location:
    NJ
    I've been using In The Groove rollers for a few years now. They are the most benign device I've ever encountered for dry removal of debris from a record surface. I use one before to get rid of as much debris as possible before wet cleaning any record.
     
  19. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    So here are the affects that various record mats thicknesses can make to the VTA. Its a simple trigonometry problem, with the tangent of angle (change in VTA) = opposite (mat thickness)/adjacent (I used tonearm effective length - 224mm);

    Mat Thickness..............Change in VTA
    5 mm............................. 1.28 deg
    3 mm..............................0.77 deg
    1 mm...............................0.26 deg

    If you keep the mat under 3mm thick, you are unlikely to notice the effect in the change in VTA.
     
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  20. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
  21. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
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  22. Jenn2021

    Jenn2021 Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Hi Neil,

    The thickness of the mat is under 3mm. May I ask your opinion if the addition of this mat below (Fluance) might significantly reduce static electricity instead of the nude acrylic platter ? Thank you.

    Turntable Mat Thickness 0.1” (2.5 mm)
    Label Recess Depth: 0.02” (0.5mm)
    Outer Diameter 12” (305mm)
    Spindle Hole Diameter 0.28” (7mm)
    Unit Weight 0.5 lbs
    Material Silicone Rubber
    Compatible With RT80, RT81, RT82, RT83, RT84, RT85
    Supported Cartridge Weight 3.5 to 6.5 grams
    UPC 061783265970
     
  23. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Jenn,

    This lab The Triboelectric Series - AlphaLab, Inc (alphalabinc.com) tested and measured the Triboelectric "charge affinity in nC/J (nano ampsec/wattsec of friction)" of various materials. The greater the difference in the charge affinity the greater the potential to develop static; and the material that is most -(negative) is the one that "steals electrons has the stronger affinity for negative charge of the two materials, and that surface will be negatively charged after the materials are separated. (Of course the other material will have an equal amount of positive charge.)". Particles are generally positive charge and they attract to a negative charge.

    Acrylic = -10
    Silicone = -72
    PVC = -100 (the record should be slightly less)

    So, from the above, it should be obvious that acrylic platter and the record is not the best combination. The difference in charge affinity is -90. The record easily develops a static charge from acrylic platter. So, if you take a clean static-free record, place it on the acrylic platter the side in contact will develop static and when you flip the same now happens to the other side. Item to note, we do not know if the platter bearing is grounded for your table. The ground connection may only be for the cartridge/preamp.

    For silicone, the difference in charge affinity is -28, so it stands to reason that the silicone will be better. Will it be enough? That depends. The testing that was done is good data, but triboelectric charge often defies expectations. It comes down to unique differences in the materials. If the material uses carbon-black for pigment that should reduce the charge affinity difference. So, a black silicone platter may do better than expected.

    However, silicone depending on its durometer (how soft, how stiff) will damp the record. In the book - VI.10.b, "... The article Do Turntable Mats Work? You Bet! Robert Stockton, Audio Magazine June 1979 (59) goes into a good summary on the topic and no reason to repeat here and further illustrates the flow of static charge and the benefits of damping." Here is the article - Audio-1979-06.pdf (worldradiohistory.com).

    However, for you, the effect of damping by the mat, can offset the VTF problems caused by static. In the book - VI.7 "The article Phonograph Reproduction 1978, James H. Kogen, Audio Magazine May 1978 (28) goes into some detail on static; what causes it and what does not – the needle in the groove was not a source of static. The article indicates that static is not uniform, but exists as islands on a record. Additionally, once the static gets high enough to discharge to the cartridge it only reduces to about 4200 volts. A static charge on the record of 4200 volts will not create noise by itself, but it can by electrostatic attractive forces cause a transient increase in cartridge VTF as much as 0.375 grams leading to distortion and premature wear. So, managing static has many benefits." Here is the article - Audio-1978-05.pdf (worldradiohistory.com).

    After all is said and done, unfortunately, this is an area where it can be just trial & error. You may fix the static problem, but not like the sound. Welcome to the wild and wooly world of analog (record) playback :laugh:.

    Good Luck,
    Neil
     
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  24. In-capacitor

    In-capacitor Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    really like those articles! I’m currently using an acrylic mat ,although I love the sound signature it is very temperamental when it comes to building static...I’ve came across at a decoupling mat a while ago any thoughts on the capabilities?..or are the just snake oil...Music Hall Mat
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021 at 6:28 PM
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  25. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    There are many available mats at all price points - reviewed by many people with any number of claims:
    -Five turntable mats: An audiophile shootout - Part-Time Audiophile (parttimeaudiophile.com)
    -Top Turntable Mats 2021: The Best Platter Mat for Your Record Player - Rolling Stone
    -How Do Different Turntable Mats Affect Sound Quality and Performance? - Sound Matters (yoursoundmatters.com)

    I have tried felt, thick & thin leather and natural rubber:

    -Felt was bad for static and a dust magnet.
    -Thick leather was bad for static; never used long enough to assess sound.
    -DIY thin (~1mm) leather (suede side up/skin side down) was good for sound and static but over time collected dust that eventually gave it back to the record and could not be cleaned.
    -Natural rubber - Technics/Panasonic™ mat PN RGS0008; 3 mm thick relatively soft rubber; not bad for static, was not a dust magnet, easy to clean surface, but killed the sound. The best way to explain the effect was that it softened and homogenized the music. It’s that soft focus that makes everything look (and sound) good; but takes away all the interesting details. For my platter (VPI 2" AL) the mat overdamped.

    I now use a DIY mat I cut from a 18"x24" Bertech™ ESD Vinyl Mats and Mat Kits, 3059 Series (Bertech ESD Three Layer Vinyl Mat Kit (Made in USA), 2 Feet Wide x 4 Feet Long x 0.094 Inches Thick, Gray, Includes a Wrist Strap and Grounding Cord, RoHS and REACH Compliant: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific. The material is only 0.1" (2.5mm) thick but is 3-layers.

    The top is lightly embossed (gray or blue) vinyl that is formulated to be electrically dissipative, the bottom is smooth vinyl that is formulated to be electrically dissipative and the center is a conductive 'fleece'. The material is stiff (but the center is porous and not completely hard) with durometer of 85A so it has some damping. The center is electrically conductive. The Bertech™ 3-layer mat surface is specified as being impervious to just about any cleaner so durability of anti-static properties should be very good. The vinyl top surface is very similar to the record making it near neutral wrt triboelectric scale.

    Note: The ESD mat comes rolled-up, and after cutting will take some time to fully flatten. Use a platter mat as a template, but can be cut easily & cleanly with scissors. Also, slightly undercut the spindle hole of the mat with a box cutter tip to make sure it makes good contact with the spindle. Because there is no label depression, this mat is used with a reflex clamp. With a reflex clamp you put a thin rubber or DIY leather washer (~1.25" OD) on the mat, so the record is slightly raised. The reflex clamp (VPI supplies a threaded one for their platters) then clamps the record to the mat. Reflex clamps can help with slightly warped records. Some people like the sound with reflex clamps - others do not. The combination of the mat/clamp for me works. Like all things YMMV.
     
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