PrimaLuna Evolution Series

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Jeremy B., Mar 26, 2019.

  1. WildPhydeaux

    WildPhydeaux Forum Resident

    Yep, understand this was a thought experiment and workaround to not using the dedicated sub output on the integrated, not how you normally control volume.

    Good to hear you have identified the source of the issue.

    Really surprises me about no response from PrimaLuna, most of my interactions with them have been with Jared and he has been excellent. An off-day or naughty spam filter perhaps.

    Good luck with the tube DAC!

    Cheers,
    Robert
     
  2. Taiyedbrodel

    Taiyedbrodel Active Member

    Location:
    North Carolina
    @OC Zed sounds like we are in (somewhat) similar gear combo scenarios!

    Would actually love everyone’s input here. I’ve never owned any form of tube or integrated amp. I’ve got a rather basic Yamaha rx-v575 ($500) receiver.

    Speakers: Golden Ear Triton One R’s
    Phono stage: Sutherland 20/20
    TT: Music Hall 2.2le with Ortofon 2M Blue

    I’ve been searching for the thing that will truly “wake up” my speakers, and I’m starting to think that an integrated tube amp would be it.

    Going from having no prior tube or integrated amp situation (and literally replacing the all-in-one Yamaha), how much difference in sound experience would I expect by adding something like the PL Evo300?
     
  3. WildPhydeaux

    WildPhydeaux Forum Resident

    I haven't been a vinyl guy for 25 years, but you appear to have excellent gear for it, except the receiver is likely letting you down. The speakers are rated at a sensitivity of 92dB, so present no challenges. In truth, it would have to be a pretty inefficient speaker to be not driven well by most of the PL integrated amps.

    As for sound, I can only relay what my experiences were when moving from SS Simaudio Moon W6 monoblocks to PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP (and later to their Evo line). I found the PL to be the equal of the W6 in terms of detail and of bass "quantity" and authority. I don't feel like I gave up any bass or on the quality of the bass in terms of tightness, detail, or dynamics. In the high end I was shocked at just how crystal clear the PL is, yet it never sounds harsh, grainy or brash and my W6s certainly could sound a little edgy on marginal material. The midrange is lush and smooth. No harshness unless a recording is VERY poor. And in this case I tend to switch to Triode mode, which takes the edge off of these bad recordings. I guess this is where the PL is coloured, although I don't feel like it misrepresents the source. It's just a more agreeable sound to my ear and I have found myself having MUCH longer music listening sessions than previously. And I end those sessions only because I'm needed elsewhere or its time for bed - I have never had listening fatigue with the PL. Just the opposite in fact: I find listening to the PL totally engaging and the music moves me far more than the W6, which are awesome but ultimately uninvolving.

    Cheers,
    Robert
     
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  4. Taiyedbrodel

    Taiyedbrodel Active Member

    Location:
    North Carolina
    Thanks so much, Robert! Wonderful insight, and much appreciated.

    I agree the Yamaha is likely the culprit in most of my scenarios; it’s just not matching up to the higher-end components. As you alluded, I have a deep commitment to the vinyl path right now (hence the Sutherland). Hoping to get this fine-tuned before refocusing on proper digital playback (we host a lot of “vinyl nights” at our house- whiskey & wine aplenty). But it seems the EVO integrated line could be pretty versatile for both purposes?
     
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  5. Baci

    Baci Well-Known Member

    I moved from a relatively old Rotel receiver to the PL and it's been a revelation. My experience is similar to Robert's. Listening into the music is engrossing. I thought I had drifted away from music a bit, and couldn't imagine really a situation when I would sit down and actually listen to an entire album like in the old days, but with the Evo 300 (along with a tube DAC, my Heresy 3s and an SVS subwoofer in there somewhere) I now have listening sessions every evening. It's my wind-down, and like Robert I kinda have to pull myself away from the music. The amp is bulletproof and as the tubes burn in it just gets better. Even the remote has heft and satisfying to use. It's a great experience and well worth the outlay.
     
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  6. WildPhydeaux

    WildPhydeaux Forum Resident

    I have an entirely digital setup feeding the PrimaLuna. I don't stream from online sources - that will come but I'm having too much fun rediscovering my owned CDs, which have all been ripped and I now access only via Roon. Honestly, stuff I never gave a second thought to when it was on the shelf in the form of a physical CD is now a treat to hear as part of a genre variety shuffle.

    I'm envious of your vinyl setup from a nostalgia perspective (and I know it sounds marvelous) but I do not miss the ritual of queuing up albums. Though it must be super fun when you are hosting like-minded friends.

    System synergy is a bit of a crap-shoot, at least for me, but I would encourage you to try a PrimaLuna if you can borrow for a weekend. You may just find the dynamics to your liking.

    Cheers,
    Robert
     
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  7. OC Zed

    OC Zed Bludgeon Riffola

    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    Yes, I have both the EVO 300 and the Yamaha A-S3000 integrated amps. I love them both through my GE Triton One.Rs, but they each provide a different experience. I would describe the Yamaha as being very clear and detailed, yet retaining a touch of warmth, and with a very large sound stage that can really emphasize vocals. The PL, however, provides a good amount of detail and sound stage (but not as much as the Yamaha), with a greater overall sense of warmth, roundness and proportion to recordings.

    I know this may sound like a strange analogy, but it's the best way I can describe it... If I could compare the two to daylight, the Yamaha would be like the sun on a clear, hot day around 3:00... filled with vibrant, but direct/intense coloration, whereas the PL is more of a golden glow of sunset kind of a sound. Both are awesome... it just depends on your preference. Both amps (or their cheaper versions in the same lines) should offer a big upgrade over your current amp, so I think you'll be happy no matter which way you end up.
     
  8. ogdens_sliced

    ogdens_sliced Walnut Plug

    Location:
    Albion
    I've had major issues getting Primaluna to respond to aftermarket questions on their product. Zero response to the form on their Web or their email including repeated requests.

    By far the most shocking aftermarket communication I've ever experienced from any hifi company in 30 + years.

    I find companies usually fall into three categories:

    1: those who do not respond at all (see above).
    2: those that reply using only quotes from already publushed manuals / product flyers (McIntosh being a good example here from experience)
    3: those who actually have an open dialogue on their products (PMC, Lab12, Audiomods, Youtek (Hana), Cartridge Man, Trafomatic, Moonriver Audio all been very good examples from experience here).
     
  9. Baci

    Baci Well-Known Member

    Well to update the public record I went back to PL with my query again noting that I had not received a response when I asked the same question a little while back, and did receive a response. Jared said that he remembered answering the question I asked and suggested that indeed I might have provided an incorrect email address to them. He went on to answer my question very thoroughly and insightfully providing a perspective I hadn't considered. Way more than just a perfunctory or disinterested answer. So for me they are solidly in category (3).
     
  10. ogdens_sliced

    ogdens_sliced Walnut Plug

    Location:
    Albion
    Good for you. :righton:

    I shall cling to hope and also update the public record if required
     
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  11. ogdens_sliced

    ogdens_sliced Walnut Plug

    Location:
    Albion
    For clarity on my above post, I'm not knocking the products of Primaluna, the Evo 400 is a killer amp and and am very happy with it.
    Just have an ongoing gripe with their aftermarket.
    So far......
     
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  12. Baci

    Baci Well-Known Member

    :) Really hoping you have the same experience I did. And you're right. What an amp!
     
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  13. DryWhiteToast

    DryWhiteToast Where's my Ativan

    To the EVO owners. I really can't stop thinking of getting one and I am coming up with questions just at random times lol.
    I was mowing the lawn today and I was thinking .... "they have auto-bias but can you still manually check the bias to make sure it is in the range"?
    So, just throwing that out there.
    I have an insulin pump with a Continuous Glucose Monitoring System that similarily has an "auto-bias" in the fact that I don't have to prick my fingers and compare the results to the CGM but, I do once a day to keep it in sync.
    That's where I am coming from lol.
    Anyways,
    Thanks
     
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  14. Classic Car Guy

    Classic Car Guy - Touch the Face of God -

    Location:
    Northwest, USA
    To simplify, from a brand new amp purchase, I don't think youll need to check the bias range on that amp. anything that happens to it your covered for 3 years and s you should have a piece of mind and to extend more in the following year of experience.
     
  15. WildPhydeaux

    WildPhydeaux Forum Resident

    As far as I know, not without opening up the chassis and getting jiggy with the DMM.

    I trust the auto-bias does its job, and PrimaLuna apparently invented the technology years ago. But I just wonder, if this amp is rocking my word as-is - would I really tinker with it to see if I could "sweeten up" that bias point? Er, no. Queue up another Lighnin' Hopkins and chill...

    Cheers,
    Robert
     
  16. DryWhiteToast

    DryWhiteToast Where's my Ativan

    Thanks CCG and Robert.
    So, if you wanted to verify the bias, you would have to do much more than the guys that own non auto-bias amps?
    Is it even possible for a technical idiot like myself?
     
  17. WildPhydeaux

    WildPhydeaux Forum Resident

    To be clear, I don't know how to manually bias a tube amp. I did previously have a tube amp which had a meter on the front and a small adjustment pot on the back panel. After warming it up fully, you adjusted the screw in the pot so that the meter showed X volts, I don't recall the number. That's the extent of my knowledge. I'm sure I could read up on how to do it with a handheld meter, but unless there are test ports available for the test leads on the exterior of the chassis and the adjustment pot is also available externally, then yes you'll have to open it up.

    The point is - if the amp is one which requires manual biasing, I assume most would provide access externally or perhaps under a removable panel. If you've ever seen the PrimaLuna with the cover off you'll see that it has to be upside down to do so. So not ideal for doing in place on your audio stand.

    With respect, I suggest you either learn to trust the circuit or get an amp that is designed for manual adjustment.

    I don't pine for the days of manual adjusters on my car's drum brakes. The automatic ones worked fine and if they did jam I could tell there was something wrong and only then did I get the bent screwdriver out and prepare to lay down in the snow (it's always bad weather when that happens).

    Do you double-check your calculator with some long-hand division?

    Kidding of course, but really?

    Cheers,
    Robert
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
  18. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    There’s no way to manually check the idle current. The circuit adjusts the bias constantly as you are using the amp. This reduces distortion and extends tube life.

    If you have an out of spec tube, the bad tube light will tell you. If you turn the amp off and back on, it’ll likely work again, for a while, then you’ll blow a fuse.

    If the bad tube light comes on, it’s time to buy tubes. Keep the good ones for spares.
     
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  19. DryWhiteToast

    DryWhiteToast Where's my Ativan

    Thanks HIFI Guy.
    That is what I was looking for.
    Thanks also Robert.
    Take Care,
     
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  20. Kubidemon

    Kubidemon Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Fulshear TX
    Hello folks,
    New member here and an absolute Tube Nube. Coming from the AV receiver and multi channel amp world to the world of 2-ch hifi. I’m currently going through an overhaul of my modest system that included a PS Audio Sprout 100 + Whardedale Diamond 10.2 + Project debut carbon DC + Ortofon 2M Blue + Oppo BDP-95 for DAC/SACD playback.

    About 2 months ago I made the mistake of discovering Upscale Audio and Kevin Deal’s product videos. Over the last month I have replaced my Wharfedales with the Focal Aria 936s, added a Musical Fidelity M6si integrated amp, and a Sutherland KC Vibe phono stage. I love the sound signature of the system and the Musical Fidelity amp but am still searching for the IT factor and emotional connection to the music. Enter PrimaLuna and I pulled the trigger on the EVO 400 integrated from Upscale, knowing absolutely nothing about tube amps. I received the EVO yesterday and am quite intimidated to replace my SS gear. If anyone has moved from the Musical Fidelity to the PL, I would like to hear your experiences in doing so. I am yet to hook it up but my expectations are so high that I’m worried about the experience falling short. Also I’m really worried about having to ship the PL back as a worst case scenario.

    I will be upgrading my TT once the amp has been finalized. Appreciate your feedback in advance.
     
  21. DryWhiteToast

    DryWhiteToast Where's my Ativan

    Totally....fingers crossed, hoping you open up that sucker up and give it a try.
    ;-)

    Seriously, it is a tough decision and I wish you the best.
    I am in the same situation....solid state and now ready to dive into tubes.
    The 400 is what I have my eye on.

    If you don't try it out, I understand. You selfish Bastard! ;-)

    Take Care


     
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  22. WildPhydeaux

    WildPhydeaux Forum Resident

    Hard to believe you had the confidence to order an Evo400 but are concerned about potentially not liking and having to ship it back. If you send it back untried, how badly is that going to nag the back of your mind and for how long? I don't know Kevin or Upscales policy on such things but I would be shocked if they weren't very accommodating in terms of customers changing their mind, within reason.

    People often talk of system changes in near absolutes. "It was like night and day difference". Well, certainly some changes make very, very noticable differences. But honestly, does every positive change take a system from 50% awesome to 90% awesome? So it would appear if you read the forums... My own personal take on the vast majority of significant hardware changes (monitors to floor standers, sub or no sub, solid state to tubes) is that, while not subtle, they are often not jaw-dropping. Given a reasonable equality in quality obviously. So what I'm trying to say is: temper your expectations. The change is unlikely to blow your mind. Relax. No one has a gun to your head. Connect it up, sit back and don't fuss about anything. I expect you'll be pleasantly rewarded.

    And that reward will increase in sonic value should you choose to keep the amp. I have never been a believer in "break in" for electronics gear, other than speakers. But I hadn't owned tubes before and I can say now from experience that the sound from my PL gear definately improved over 100-150 hours. Again, not night and day - it was darned good from the beginning - but there is unmistakenly more depth and body to the bottom end and midrange is more lush. Also, I note far more difference between Ultra linear and Triode modes after break-in.

    Relax, have fun.

    Cheers,
    Robert
     
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  23. HiFi Guy

    HiFi Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lakeland, FL
    Don’t be surprised if you aren’t blown away right out of the box:

    0-10 hours- I thought I’d made a mistake
    11-100 hours- It got better and better

    until 8 months....it got substantially better. I have no explanation for this, unless maybe it takes that long for the output transformers to break in?

    Also looking at your system- I too own a Sutherland phono stage. I tried the Vibe, and didn’t really love it. I decided to try an Insight. I lived with it very happily for a couple of years. If you get a chance to audition an Insight, you might want to. I got a wild hair and bought a Duo. I’m now done.
     
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  24. Classic Car Guy

    Classic Car Guy - Touch the Face of God -

    Location:
    Northwest, USA
    Welcome! That sounds about right on kevin deal!..:biglaugh:
     
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  25. Kubidemon

    Kubidemon Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Fulshear TX
    Wow thank you for all the valuable feedback in such short order folks. Also appreciate the warm welcome. I hooked it all up today and will let it sink in - just glad that music is a known cure for broken back syndrome from carrying the evo. This thing is a beast.
     
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