Pro-Ject Alignt-It - confused

So i got me this Pro-Ject Alignt It yesterday - and just to check that the overhang was relatively OK, after using Orotfon's protractor ( Baerwald) i set this bastard up.

According to the manual, the nr 2 mark is for 9" arms, which my PJ Classic has. And that the stylus is to land on the #2 mark.

However, as i landed the stylus, it was off the #2 mark by as much as 6mm..

If i am to achieve the correct "overhang" according to this tool, my cart has to be located as far as possible to the front of the headshell..

which makes no bloody sense..
has anyone here used it, and can tell me what im doing wrong?


This shows my issue - taken when the cart was aligned with Ortofon's protractor.

 

What is Ortofon's protractor, just a universal 2-point null grid? Hard to accurately set the overhang without using an arc protractor, or a gizmo like yours. Does the nail thing on the gauge seem to be well centered over the tonearm pivot? If not, that will throw it off. If the tonearm has a mark in the center of the pivot, you can use the nail point instead of relying on the number on the beam, probably be more accurate, but I guess it should be marked accurately for their arms. You still need to align it accurately over the pivot, though. Hard to tell by the lighting, but it seems you have quite a bit of the adjust slots left in the headshell, in the picture the stylus doesn't seem too far away from the target mark, does it?

 

Yep - just a two null-point baerwald. Everything was set up correctly on the Align it.

It looks closer on the photo, i admit that. In real life its a lot more.. Il'l try to get a better photo.
I tried to fiddle yesterday, and the only way for the stylus to correctly land on the dot, is if the cart is moved all the way to the front, until it can go no further.

This confuses, me, as photos of the Classic, with the Quintet Red is actually ca where i have mine located now. Also goes for Classic's with the Quintet Bronze.


To give you an idea - this is how the cart is positioned/located now.

 

How are you measuring the overhang? Does the 9cc tonearm allow you to measure it directly by moving the cart over the spindle and measuring the stylus tip to (carefully of course)?
I know the 8.6cc arm has the range of motion do this, the 9cc should too.

 

Nop, the PJ Classic's arm does not allow for this.

Pro-Ject said just use the Ortofon Protractor when i asked them about alignment - and that the cantilever was to be aligned.
I guess its correct as all photo's ive seen of the Classic Quintet combo has the cart located at that spot, where mine is too.

This photo's better. And that's the location / alignment of the cart on the SB Classic.




So my confusion is:

Is the installation of the Quintet Red/Bronze wrong or correcton the turntables ive seen photos of?

Is usage of the Ortofon Two Point / Null Point Baerwald protractor wrong or correct?
Is aligning the cantilever with the Ortofon Protractor wrong/correct?
Is Pro-Ject's Align It wrong/correct?

As i also asked both Pro-Ject and Ortofon, and both said to me cantilever alignment with Ortofons Protractor is correct..

My head is about to explode.

 

Ola, I align my Hana EH in the 9cc tonearm with the Ortofon Two Point and it sounds perfectly fine. Were you having any issues with how your Quintet Red sounds when aligned with the Ortofon Two Point?

 

It is worth noting that any product photos of the Pro-Ject table are taken by a marketing / advertising team and that the cartridge isn't necessarily aligned on those shots.
If that's what is stopping you from using the protractor, I'd say slide the cart all the way forward on the headshell slots and give it a listen.

FWIW, that's how I have my Sumiko Rainier mounted on the 8.6" arm of my debut carbon. The factory mounted 2M Red was mounted more in the centre of the headshell slots and was badly misaligned.

Hope you get it up and running soon!

 

No issues here. Its just that when i checked with the PJ align it, the cantilever was 5-10mm behind the mark..

 

If its misaligned - what will it sound like?

 

I would expect the front edge of the Quintet to be well past the end of the tonearm for Baerwald, like in these photos.

Pro-Ject RPM 9 Carbon im Test: Plattenspieler - connect

 

But - When you use a two-point protactor, like Ortofon's:
Is that the wrong way for alignment of the cantilever?

Should it even be sold if its wrong?
It uses Baerwald, so i would guess that overhang is correct once cart/cantilever is aligned?

 

It's not wrong, it is just difficult to be precise. Some people report the cartridge/cantilever appears aligned at both grids even when overhang is changed, which isn't quite possible, but can appear that way unless you are really careful and meticulous. It is much easier to use an arc protractor generated for your tonearm pivot to spindle distance and chosen alignment parameters, then the overhang and offset angle adjustments are separated, which should also be the case with your Align-It thing (which looks kinda like a cheap version of the Dr. Feickert protractor).

 

PJ's Align It is just overhang.
I went for the cantilever alignment, made sure its parallell with strong light and a good magnifying glass.

Which i guess is good enough?

Lets say its wrong aligned, what would i hear?

 

The reason I would expect to see some of the Quintet past the edge of the tonearm is that the stylus appears in photos to sit back from the front top edge. When you get the stylus out to the Baerwald overhang, it isn't surprising that a bit of the cartridge is exposed.

 

But, is the overhang - gauge the correct tool, or is using the Ortofon protractor be the correct tool?

And say i never got the overhang - gauge, would i hear any misalignment or from wrong overhang?

 

Below is a chart I generated on another forum to show how the various tracking scenarios would work at a pivot-to-spindle mounting distance of 212 mm. Arm 1 is a configuration determined by my custom parameters where I put in the correct angle for Baerwald, but entered an incorrect overhang, short by 2 mm. You can see that over most of the record the tracking distortion of Arm 1 is worse than the other three.

If the two devices will be used separately and not used to check each other, then they can be assumed to both be correct. There is going to be one correct overhang for Baerwald for your turntable, so my preference would be to use the Pro-Ject device which we believe sets Baerwald overhang first. Then I’d align the body of the cartridge to the lines on the Pro-Ject device. That should do it, unless your cantilever is not centered and straight in the cartridge. If it’s not straight, I’d check the cantilever with the Ortofon protractor and adjust as necessary, even if that required changing the overhang.

 

So sorry.. I am an imbecille..!
Adjusted with the PJ Align It.

Got the overhang correct, then realigned the cantilever with the Ortofon protractor.

Re-checked with the PJ Align It - The stylus landed just a tad behind the alignment - mark. I would say no more than 0,5mm or so.



I am an idiot..

Thanks guys

The Ortofon protractor should mention more than just cantilever alignment..
I did not really hear anything wrong with the last alignment, or at least noticed it.

Ill play thru the new correct one today

 

Just move the protractor closer.

 

Post over, i figured it out... i am an idiot..

So, that means that the Ortofon Protractor, and other two-points only aligns the cantilever.. not taking into account the overhang.
Which you can't measure with a two point. Ortofon's only has photos showing an obsucre view of "overhang"

 

I was starting to wonder if Ive been doing it all wrong forever.

 

Ive been.. I talked with Ortofon about it, and they admitted that there could have been a better explanation in the manual for their protractor / and a better protractor that has overhang alignment included

 

Ortofon's admission's got me confused?!... I may well be wrong here, but I was under the impression that if a cantilever/cartridge was aligned with a Baerwald two-point protractor such as the Ortofon, then providing the cantilever/cartridge is accurately aligned at both null points, correct overhang specific to Baerwald will be obtained by default. The same applies if a Stevenson two-point protractor was used, the overhang would then be specific to Stevenson alignment and different to Baerwald overhang. That's my understanding of it anyway.

 

I do not understand why we don't use Lofgren B as the standard and from it, deviate to the others if special needs is desirable.
When Lofgren B has the least tracking error over the the total radius over the whole record track.. Even better than the newest formula that is used in UNI-din.

Is it documented what Pro-Ject Alignt It use?
Or maybe it doesn't when it is only one point it uses.. I presume.

 

AND THATS what got me confused in the first place. I was also under that impression, Willboy. Once cantilever / cart is aligned, overhang was set. And Pro-Ject uses Baerwald by default.
So, when i checked with the PJ Align It, my head spun around..

 

The mind boggles?!

Interesting to see what others have to say...........