Problem in ripping a copy controlled CD - random clicking noise?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by LamberWBY, Oct 27, 2020.

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  1. LamberWBY

    LamberWBY Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Teaneck, NJ
    I know copy controlled CD is a much-discussed topic and much-hated product, but I think I'm experiencing an unique problem when ripping a copy controlled CD.

    I used EAC to rip one track for 3 times. Although they were all completed with no error, and the file sizes were exactly the same, all of them had some clicking noises and there occurrence seemed to be random. I used Audition 10-band graphic equalizer to boost the high frequency sound to make the clicks more apparent in the editor window.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Here you can see my three rips have clicks at the same timestamps, but the volumes are all different. I also tried to download this album ripped in lossless ripped by someone else. In that person's rip, the clicks are in different locations. Do you think these clicks were ripped because of copy control? It is a 2005 CD by Hong Kong EMI. The song is 1940s Chinese pop song. You may think that the click was there in the original 1940s recording, but they don't sound like old recording click to me, and old recording click should not vary in timestamp/volume in different rips from the same CD.

    Here are my three rips and the downloaded rip if you want to reproduce my issues. Note how rip1, 2, 3 all have same file sizes but sound different. What I did is boosting >16kHz by 40 dB in Audition 10-band graphic equalizer with Accuracy: 1000 pts. You can then hear the clicks very easily in any speaker. If not, try boosting by 60 dB.

    http://personal.psu.edu/bqw5354/rip1wav.wav
    http://personal.psu.edu/bqw5354/rip2wav.wav
    http://personal.psu.edu/bqw5354/rip3wav.wav
    http://personal.psu.edu/bqw5354/downloadedwav.wav
     
    Dodoz likes this.
  2. aphexj

    aphexj Sound mind & body

    I love Audition as a DAW but it doesn't properly rip problematic CDs, and even Exact Audio Copy for ideal results needs very specific settings matched to your drive

    Copy Controlled CDs issued by EMI in that era are notorious for causing this problem... it's not surprising in the least that you're experiencing this result
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
    McLover and c-eling like this.
  3. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    I didn't know Hong Kong EMI utilized CC.
    All of mine have been WEA Germany 2002 or so. None exhibited audible clicks, they just plain wouldn't rip. I had to use a different rom drive.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
    When In Rome likes this.
  4. aphexj

    aphexj Sound mind & body

    Maybe the settings on EAC need to be changed (I recommend ONLY ripping with secure mode, use Test + Copy, high error recovery quality, disable "accurate stream", enable caching, disable C2 error information)
     
  5. LamberWBY

    LamberWBY Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Teaneck, NJ
    I just remembered that I knew another material with similar clicking throughout. It is 2010 New Year's Concert DVD by Decca. The screenshot shows a section (with no cymbals/triangle/...) and I boosted >22kHz by 40 dB in Audition 20-band graphic equalizer with Accuracy: 1000 pts. I also downloaded a copy online but the result was the same. How could Decca make DVD that sounded like this? I doubted if it was also kind of copy control technology, or should I blame my Lenovo Z40-70?
    [​IMG]

    Here's the original audio. I can even hear some of them with my $15 Sony headphone without any boosting.
    http://personal.psu.edu/bqw5354/neu2010wav.wav
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
  6. LamberWBY

    LamberWBY Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Teaneck, NJ
    What was the drive that wouldn't rip? Was it a 2002 or so drive or a newer drive?
     
  7. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    2000's or so. (an old one) Peter Gabriel's UP promo was CC'd, it took a cheapy LG external to work. Same with Delerium's 1997 Karma. Not sure what the issue with that one was. It kept finding and only ripping 1 track, an hour or so long of just noise.
     
  8. LamberWBY

    LamberWBY Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Teaneck, NJ
    I tried your setting just now. It took 50+ minutes to rip this track, but the result did not improve - clicks are still there in the same timestamps while volume vary. However EAC did detect read error and sync error. What does it say about this CD? I don't think it is damaged. I have another CD in this series by EMI Hong Kong and it had the same problem. I only ripped them once or twice, and never played them in a stereo or in a car. Also, like I said, the copy I downloaded online also showed similar clicking, but at different timestamps. Does that mean these CDs can be considered "damaged" right from the manufacture process when copy control was applied?

    Are there any other tricks in EAC setting? I didn't know there were so many options.
     
  9. aphexj

    aphexj Sound mind & body

    Yes, the CDs were made deliberately difficult to rip — unacceptable practice from the consumers' point of view, I believe, but that's not really what you asked

    Different drives behave differently, you may have to experiment with other settings depending on what drive you are using. Or try a different drive with the same setting...
     
  10. Don Hills

    Don Hills Forum Resident

    One type of CC deliberately introduced CU errors during burning. A CD player would interpolate over the errors but the errored samples would be captured when ripping.
     
    jusbe likes this.
  11. LamberWBY

    LamberWBY Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Teaneck, NJ
    Can you upload a track from any copy controlled CD? Maybe I can find similar clicking there as well.
     
  12. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    It has been a long long time since I've ripped a copy protected CD with the style of protection that would cause audible ticks. So long ago that I can't remember what I did to get around it or even what CD it was.

    One strategy I'm curious about now is using CUETools to detect problems then use CUETools to correct those errors. CUETools has a very neat way of being able to detect and then correct errors in an already ripped CUE image of the CD. I wonder if CUETools repair could manage to repair that rip to a version without the ticks? It would depend on whether someone has managed to rip that CD without ticks and also submit that rip to the CUETools correction database. Worth a try. The repair function in CUETools is a bit confusing to use. And will probably present several different versions of that CD rip to correct to. You'd have to guess to figure out which correction it presents is one that doesn't have the ticks. So some guessing and some confusion in trying this method. But I'm wondering could it work?
     
    c-eling likes this.
  13. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

  14. LamberWBY

    LamberWBY Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Teaneck, NJ
    If I'm not mistaken, CUETools is for repairing any damage or data loss between the tracks, not within a track. I will give it a try though,

    So you do remember that there were copy protected CD that caused audible ticks?
     
  15. LamberWBY

    LamberWBY Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Teaneck, NJ
    I can't find anything weird with this track, so the clicking in my CD may have nothing to do with copy control. What about the DVD audio though? I know DVD copy control is usually achieved by making the ripped video unplayable, such as 2006 New Year's Concert by DG, but I don't know if it can do anything with the audio. If not, how could Decca release this DVD without noticing such audible defect? I don't find any other reviewer complain about this problem, so I guess I need to buy a new drive.
     
  16. LamberWBY

    LamberWBY Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Teaneck, NJ
    Now I'm considering getting a new drive. I have no little knowledge in audio hardware. What do you think a copy controlled CD prefers? A DVD player that can play disc only but has AUX out? A DVD drive that allows copying the files to PC using USB? Or a portable CD player?
     
  17. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    Lamber I went with a cheap slim LG external. I use it for all my basic ripping needs and use my old one for pre-emphasis SubQ detection and for tough to rip discs. It's always good to have a couple in use.
    For DVD-A I use the LG as well, along with the program DVD Audio Extractor.
     
  18. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    CUETools is able to correct bad data in the middle of the audio files.
    It's similar in concept to the Parchive (parity archive) format that was common on usenet way back in the old days. The files would be distributed along with a small PAR file that contained some correction data. With some fancy algorithms they were able to use that PAR file to correct small errors in the downloaded archives that would be due to corruption during the download (downloads using modems weren't always reliable). It's very clever algorithms and math to make that work. The limitation is that the PAR files can only correct short sections of corruption. If there is too much corruption in the file the PAR file won't have enough data in it to correct it.

    The CUETools repair feature is similar. The cuetools database has the equivalent of PAR files for CDs that have been submitted to the database. If you rip a disc that has scratches that cause some read errors the cuetools repair may be able to fix those errors. But only if there aren't too many errors. If the scratch is too big or there are too many scratches the repair won't be able to do its magic.

    If the ticks caused by the copy protection are small enough and infrequent enough the cuetools repair just might be able to fix the errors. Maybe. That's what I'm curious about.

    And yes, there were/are some copy protection schemes that would cause audible ticks when you ripped the disc. An audio CD player will interpolate those errors and remove the click but a computer drive will treat those errors as valid and the tick will remain. The copy protection scheme is intentionally triggering behavior that computer data drives will get confused by while audio only drives will ignore.
     
    c-eling likes this.
  19. Jwest97

    Jwest97 Bass Player for Luxury Furniture Store

    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    You could try routing a CD player with a coax out into an interface that accepts coax in. I used it for my Dual Disc copy of Remain in Light by Talking Heads
     
  20. Have you tried dBPoweramp?
    I've had a small number of copy controlled CDS, and dBPoweramp ripped them without issue.
     
    caracallac and c-eling like this.
  21. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    This is going to be more of a drive issue than software I think. I've had issues with dB as well. Even with selecting 'defective by design'
     
  22. There was a keyboard hack for it - holding down the shift key whilst inserting/loading the CD used to work, but Windoze might have moved on since ....
     
  23. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    For that Gabriel, I tried every trick in the book including that. A newer manufactured drive was my only solution.
     
  24. vwestlife

    vwestlife Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    If your computer's optical drive can play the disc fine but has problems ripping it, then just play it and record the audio via Stereo Mix. (It's still there in newer versions of Windows, but is disabled by default: Tutorial: How to Enable Stereo Mix in Windows 7 )
     
    Maggie likes this.
  25. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    What exactly is the CD you are trying to rip? Can you please link us to its discogs entry?
     
    SeeDeeFirth and c-eling like this.
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