Question about how to make my turntable sound OK with my home theater receiver

Hello all,

I have a new Sony DA4ES integrated receiver that is designed mostly for home theater. It's powerful and clean, and digital music sounds quite good through it (I'm breaking in my new Sony 222ES SACD player as we speak.) Part of the reason I chose this unit was the presence of a phono input, as I still enjoy playing my vinyl (and I just got a new cartridge for my Rega P2, so I'm ready to listen to all my old records again.)

Here's the rub: my table sounds really poor through this amp. I know it's not the table or the setup, because it sounded decent on my 15 year old Denon amp (R.I.P.) and I just double-checked the connections. There is a dedicated phono input, so it's not as if I am using just any old line input for the table. But it sounds so crappy! I have to crank up the volume pretty high and the sound is thin and reedy.

3 questions:

1) Would it likely help the sound if I got a phono stage or phono pre-amp for my table and receiver?

2) If I did so, could I run it through the phono input of my receiver, or should I use a line level input (like one of the available video inputs, for instande?) I don't know too much about the technical details, but I seem to remember that a phono pre-amp applies the RIAA curve to the signal, and I'm wondering if that would somehow conflict with the phono input in my receiver, which likely already applies the RIAA E.Q.

3) If I need a phono stage, can anyone make a suggestion? I'd like to spend less than $300, and there seems to be a pretty fair selection at that price.

Please help!

Thanks,

Chris

 

Sounds like there's not enough gain in the phono stage for your cartridge. What's your cartridge? Receivers usually have a low-gain stage suitable only for high output cartridges--around 3-5 milivolts. Low output cartridges like most moving coils only put out aroun .3-.5 mV.

 

I run my MMF-7 through my Denon receiver and have been quite pleased with my Monolithic PS-1 phono stage. I think it cost about $350. Eventually, I added the separate power supply for the PS-1, which adds a little more presence to the bass and improves the soundstage somewhat.

If you go with a separate phono stage, you will need to run it through one of the line inputs in the receiver, not the phono input.

A standalone phono stage can really make a difference if your receiver's phono input is an underperformer.

 

Thanks for your thoughts. It's a Rega Super Elys, which is a very high output cartridge, as are most Regas.

I think it's just a lousy phono board in the amp.

Chris

 

If you get a phono amp run it into the tape or video inputs, not the existing phono input. For $300 you can get a used Monolithic Sound, or check out the CIaudio phono amp. Design by the individual who made the Monolithic Sound. It's $300 new directly from the site http://www.ciaudio.com/ , they offer a 30 trial period. It can be found for less maybe through Audioweb.com , but you may not get the 30 trial period.

 

Heck, you can try a 9V Rat Shack phono pre so you know all is well, then you can use that until you slip into something more comfy.

 

The monolithic is a nice piece. There's also options in the DIY area--Foreplay if you like tubes. Or the SS dB systems unit available at AudioAdvisor for only about $175. Lots of choices out there under $300.

 

Is it possible that the phono input has a setting for ceramic cartridges? If so, you'd definitely get extremely thin and quiet sound. If not, from your description it sounds like the receiver is defective. (Surely it' doesn't have *only* a ceramic cartridge input??)

 

I'm afraid the answer is that Sony probably just didn't put any effort whatsoever into the development of the phono section. They probably assumed that only a very small percentage of consumers would actually use it, so it was designed as cheaply as possible. I'm shocked that it has a phono section at all--that's almost unheard of these days in a home theater receiver.

Also, I just looked through the specs on this particular receiver and it's supposed to have an "Analog Direct" mode. Are you using this when you listen to vinyl? If not, then the analog signal is probably running through a lot of digital circuitry which could quite possibly do some unpleasant things to the sound.

As others have said, your best bet is probably an outboard phono preamp. The "little rat" from Radio Shack is the cheapest way to go, but there are plenty of other reasonably-priced models from companies such as NAD, Sumiko, etc.

As thegage said, there are also some good DIY options if you don't mind going that route. However, the Foreplay tube pre from Bottlehead does not have a phono input--it is strictly line level.

 

I would suggest looking for another 15 year old Denon (or something similar). This same thing happened to me and I finally gave up trying to find a new "home theater" system that doubles as my main stereo. I bought the somewhat highly regarded (according to audioreview.com) Sony DB-930 and I couldn't believe how bad it sounded!!! My Denon integrated from the early 1980s completely destroyed it. I finally looked into some vintage equipment and may never look back. That's the sound I prefer. It may be what's best for you too.

 

I plan on making a high-quality passive switching system for my future home theater/audio system. The L/R outputs of the HT receiver would feed my main L/R front amp. WHen I wanted to spin some vinyl or tape, i'd flip the switch, and my Hafler preamp would then be routed to the amp. A good high-quality switch, premium wiring and gold-plated connectors in a shielded case would do the trick for me.

It may help to see if there is a different sensitivity setting for the phono input. Since Sony sells a pile of crap turntable with a built-in preamp, they may assume some buyers are using it. "Thin" and "not enough volume" are clues that there isn't a true phono preamp stage in there, or you just need to find a switch to enable it.

The Pioneer Elite receiver I've been eyeballing has a phono input, but I really want to stick with my proven preamp combo.

 

My DJ mixer and minisystem with an AUX input are what works for me. A good DJ mixer will work wonders as a phono stage and you can hook up lots of other things in it as well and they can run in all kinds of price ranges, but the ones that retail for about anywhere from $50 for just a 2 channel mixer to $500 and even higher but ones that retail for around $100-$200 are what's recommended.

http://www.northernlightfx.com/cart.php?Action=closeup&prod=PMX-1100
http://www.northernlightfx.com/cart.php?Action=closeup&prod=DM1090X

But if only a 2 channel mixer is necessary for your needs: http://www.northernlightfx.com/cart.php?Action=closeup&prod=PMX-250 This 2 channel mixer is $49.95 but for what you pay for, you get: 2 stereo channels
2 Phono
2 Line inputs
Cue section w/level control
LED output meter

Which isn't as much as whatyou'd get with the 4 channel mixers such as the Gemini PMX-1100 and that model costs $99.95.

For my needs, I'd go for the approx. $100 mixers and for your home system, I'd probably suggest the same thing.

 

Thanks so much for all the helpful suggestions and advice.

I love this place.

Chris