Question about Inner Groove Distortion (especially on shorter records)

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by BryanA-HTX, Jan 17, 2019.

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  1. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Plays just fine with an advanced stylus.
     
    c-eling likes this.
  2. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Perhaps, but Im leaning towards it being something other than his system lacking, at least thats what we should check before suggesting an upgrade to a Fritz Gyger cart.
     
  3. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    ^This!
     
  4. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The cheapest decent cart with an advanced stylus that I'm aware of currently is the new AT VM 95 ML. Retails for about $170 in the U.S. If I were OP, I'd probably look into one of those and use the Grado for only tamely cut records or simply chuck it in the trash. An extreme opinion? Maybe, but IGD drives me nuts and I don't tolerate it like other people do.
     
    blacklava, bever70 and Pavol Stromcek like this.
  5. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    The question remains if thats the problem hes experiencing though. He shouldnt buy or throw away anything before he knows what the problem is.
     
  6. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Are the records used previously? Played previously on less than good equipment? Console and/or compact stereo system used? Is the cartridge correctly aligned? Overhang proper? Stylus clean and good. Records clean and good. Many Pop, Rock, R&B, and Country albums led hard lives, many played heavily, partied hard, not always well cared for.
     
  7. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I'm not sure what else the problem could be. He specifically asked about IGD. The problem occurs closer to the end of the record, not the whole record. He has a U-Turn which was probably factory aligned on a jig just fine.
     
    BryanA-HTX likes this.
  8. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    I named 4 possibilities earlier besides the cart being inadequate. I would personally not trust U turn to do it right, theres been threads before on them doing it wrong. And he mentioned other albums that are longer where hes not experiencing IGD. So its not conclusive yet.
     
  9. I have similar issues and for me, it seems to be related to the antiskate settings. I put on an LP last night (new pressing of U2’s War remaster) and there was noticeable IGD. I lowered the antiskate and it really helped but I have a little more tinkering to do. I’m hoping between that and a cart that tracks better I’ll be in better shape. The adjustable gain on my phono helped a little too.
     
  10. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    IIRC, U-Turn does their own alignment standard, which is different from a generic Stevenson or Baerwald protractor. Companies do this all the time, and people think the factory alignment is "wrong" when it's just different.

    IGD is not something that easily hearable for everyone on all records. Usually it's something that most people notice on the most aggressively cut records. I have a number of old jazz albums (pressed in the 60s, when advanced profiles did not exist), for example, that I can play back with a conical or elliptical just fine. But the minute I put on an aggressively cut rock record from the 70s or 80s IGD is way more noticeable. Even on newer vinyl, there is often wide variability in how aggressively records are cut, IME.
     
  11. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Too much or too little anti-skate can make the stylus ride one side of the groove more than the other. That's not good and can result in distortion. However, if it's an aggressively cut album with narrow deadwax and cut loud, there is only so much fiddling with anti-skate is going to do. I've not tried any of these new U2 pressings yet because I have old pressings from the 80s. The Joshua Tree one interested me the most because the album is a bit long for a single LP and compromises had to be made during cutting when the old pressings were done. The new one pressed on 2xLP should sound better, provided the pressing plant didn't screw it up (common these days).
     
  12. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Right, that was another possibility I suggested.

    And why would they have their own allignment standard? Is the arm shorter than usual or something?
     
  13. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    If you play around with alignment software like the Conrad Hoffman program, you'll see that many manufacturers (even from decades ago) had their own standards, where they would round up or down half a millimeter or so from general standards. IME it often has to do with what groove spacing standard they were using in addition to the alignment method. Stevenson with DIN groove spacing will give you different numbers than IEC spacing, for example. Does that mean one is wrong and the other is right? No, they are just different. W/R/T to UTurn, you'd have to ask them what their reasoning was.
     
  14. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    Well, if the pivot to spindle distance and arm leangth is pretty standard then yeah, shouldnt matter. And I would trust myself to do it right with the alignment I want rather than them.
    But its not up to you or me.
     
  15. VinylSoul

    VinylSoul Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lake Erie
    Grado recommends little or no anti-skating for their cartridges. May I suggest Last stylus cleaner and Stylast preservative.
     
  16. This one is a single LP so there’s not much dead space. I hear no distortion except on the last song, and it got way better when I lowered the antiskate a little, so I hope that meant in closer to ideal. I don’t think it’ll be perfect and I’m not looking for it to be.

    And yes, the new 2LP releases do sound better than the original. I have 4 different pressings of The Joshua Tree and the reissues are my favorite.
     
  17. manxman

    manxman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Isle of Man
    With my linear tracking turntable and Pramanik (Shibata-type) stylus, I get no inner groove distortion on mono or stereo LPs. However, with CD4 quadraphonic LPs it's a different matter: I get severe distortion in the rear left channel if there are vocals (but not if it's purely instruments in that channel).
     
    bever70 likes this.
  18. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    The Pramanik stylus and quadrophonic leads me to believe you have a very nice beogram ;-)?!
     
  19. manxman

    manxman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Isle of Man
    Yes, I have the Beogram 6000 and its matching quadraphonic amplifier.
     
  20. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    Very nice, I also had both of them but sold them on about 15 years ago because they were not functional. I made certain that they went to a good loving new home ;-).

    I was wondering, is it true that tangentials (I still use some other tangential beograms from time to time) are always/mostly better with IGD or is that mostly marketing talk ?
     
  21. manxman

    manxman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Isle of Man
    I think it's true. Certainly, the only problems I ever have are with the rear left channels of certain CD4 LPs, as I mentioned.
     
  22. rcsrich

    rcsrich Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    ...and this is why i'm primarily digital. You're going to have to be willing to fiddle OR be willing to settle for some IGD on some records OR pony up and get a good cartridge OR some combination of the three. If perfection is your tendency, be prepared to spend time and money, or be prepared for heartbreak. Digital may sound cold an crunchy in comparison sometimes, but IGD it ain't got. ;)
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  23. Nielsoe

    Nielsoe Forum Resident

    Location:
    Aalborg, Denmark
    First: I didn’t go through the other replies, but here’a mine: I used to own a Grado Black and it’s a fantastic sounding cart, but you should know it’s not a very good tracker. No alignment skills will ever change that. I just got a Denon DL301II that tracks anything. It’s MC and pricier than the Grado though. Short: it’s the cart mate.
     
    BryanA-HTX likes this.
  24. Fedot L

    Fedot L Forum Resident

    Exactly. The geometrical problem of impossibility to reproduce a gramophone record with a stylus geometrically exactly equal to the cutting chisel, clearly described by the links above.
    With the pinch effect or not, the “TRACING distortion” (described above) rests unremovable.
     
  25. IGD can be a result of improper cartridge alignment, but more often than not, it is how they mastered the record itself. If you don't get IGD on most records, then you know it's not from your hardware. Some of those cutting the records work hard to address the IGD problem. They control the sound levels and try to cut all the groove as far away from the center of the record as they can. The new 50th anniversary of The Doors "Waiting For The Sun" is an example. This is also stated in the literature which comes with it.
    IGD can also result from who pressed the record and the material used. Decades ago, there were more companies pressing records than there are today. Often, you could get the same record which was pressed at multiple different factories, simultaneously, due to region and/or demand. One record could have been pressed at, say, Columbia Santa Maria(which used virgin high-quality vinyl) while simultaneously pressed at Monarch in L.A.(which used a lower quality of vinyl or styrene). This was common with A&M label records. The CSM pressed record may play flawlessly while the Monarch record might not play as well(especially IGD).
    I would also suggest upgrading your equipment. The U-turn Orbit is very minimalist.
     
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