Recommendations- Building a Benny Goodman Collection

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ponso1966, Mar 2, 2019.

  1. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    I have a couple of other airchecks/live performances from that time where they added the echo effect. It is about the only type of mixing that I can immediately identify and truly hate. I know a lot of people dislike the muting of the highs on some sets, but that only bothers me when it egregious. Downthread we discussed RCA's horrible "stereo effect reproduced". Its good to know that Columbia didn't do this with their later Savory releases. My Savory discs are flawless original commercial releases from 1952 and I hate playing them for fear of scratching them. I might pick up a later release now knowing they didn't mess with the effects/EQ too much.
     
  2. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Do you have the cd set.https://www.amazon.com/Air-1937-1938-Benny-Goodman/dp/B00000286L/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=benny+goodman+live+1937-38&qid=1577736929&sr=8-1
    T
    hey didn’t mess up the Savory titles but added some tracks from the Sunbeam Madhattan room albums and the sound is rough compared to the Savory tracks.
     
  3. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Yes, I very much enjoy that set. I also have a single CD of the "Performance Recordings" MGM set that came in a boxed set with several other titles. I was most pleased to find out that "Madhouse" was on it. For some reason, that is one of my favorites from that period.
     
  4. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Yeah, Madhouse is great. Curious, want CD box set are you referring to. Off hand I can’t think of one with that material. I certainly would be interested in it.
     
  5. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014U1IKNS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    This set has the first disc of the MGM Treasure Chest set on one CD. It also has a version of Carnegie that is either the 1989 set or the 1999 one, I can't tell. When I bought it a few years ago, it had some material I didn't then have. Much of it has been replaced by the better sounding Mosaic sets since I have gotten both the Columbia/Okeh and Capitol sets in the interim. But the Performance Recordings disc made it worthwhile. It's one of these mysterious EU sets that just shows up, goes away, and leaves with little information about who/how/when it was produced, etc.
     
  6. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Ah, ok. Haven’t picked this up. Some interesting and, at one time, hard to find albums in this. If “Sometimes I’m Happy” is included in the Carnegie Hall set then it’s the later release. Thanks.
     
  7. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Ah, yes, that's right. I knew there was an easy way to tell between the two. It's the 1989 issue.
     
  8. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Well, that’s the version lp to cd that I grew up with and Savory gave it I nice sound. Of course, the newer version as fixed by Jasmine records has more music and detail but is messed up because of the “I Got Rhythm” 30 second edit. Hope springs eternal for the newer version, Santa must have gotten delayed.....I went ahead and ordered the set. I assume some of it will have the horrible RCA ortho sound, but it’s interesting to hear what the put together back then. I believed the grab some alternates inadvertently sometime.
     
  9. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    I also grew up on the 1989 CD version of Carnegie. I never knew anything different until I started collecting records in earnest in the early/mid 90's and found a better Lp copy (the 1963 two-Lp box with the grey Columbia Six-Eyes Masterworks label) at Jerry's Records. Many years later, I was thumbing through Benny's section and Jerry's jazz room manager, who I knew well at the time, pointed me to a pristine copy of the 1950 Columbia discs. I've never heard Carnegie better before or since. I've put them in sealed plastic and recently purchased a second "'backup" copy to play when the mood strikes. My problem with all of this is that I need a reference track to hear differences in EQ/sound quality. Once I hear two versions of the same recording, I can hear all those things audiophiles seem to pick up instinctively. To my knowledge, there is minimal ortho/echo on any of the digital Carnegie concert releases, just better or worse transcription, high end removal/muddiness on the 1989 release, and, of course, the skips. I have really enjoyed the Jasmine version and have been listening to it over and over. I just picked it up a few weeks ago and it is the closest approximation (in sound quality) to the 1950 Columbia discs I have found. This all being said, I just went back and listened to my backup copy of Lp version of "Stompin' at the Savoy" and none of the digital version sound as clean or crisp. Even Jasmine removed too much of the high end. I'd love to get my hands on the Sony set too. No present from Santa this year!
     
  10. Discog Dave

    Discog Dave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Rochester NY USA
    Have been looking at this forum for some time, and this discussion thread pushed me to join up to add some thoughts. To start...

    For the RCA 1935-39 recordings (using the LPs/CDs only criteria), my taste runs to the original eight 2-LP (RCA Bluebird AXM2-... series) sets produced by Frank Driggs. The 16-LP digitally-remastered "...RCA Victor Years" sounded a little harsh to me back in the day; I'd had it, sold it off, and relatively recently re-bought it (and the cassette version, both inexpensively) just for completeness' sake.

    The "unicorn" being chased by some, the Japanese CD box set (RCA BVCJ-7030~41), has the faults of Driggs' set and unfortunately adds another problem: on certain cuts the music starts with a "wow' as if the table playing the test pressing or metal part was still getting up to speed.

    Early copies of the single CD "Sing, Sing, Sing" (RCA/BMG 5630-2-RB) sound to me like honest digital transfers from the original parts without excessive messing-about.

    On the other hand, "The Birth of Swing" (RCA Bluebird 07863-61038-2) is here just for the three previously unissued performances and the good liner notes from George T Simon and Loren Schoenberg. There are certain cuts on that compilation that are painful for me to listen to.

    Before I forget, thanks to the posters in pages above who mentioned my book in company with Russ Connor's two final definitive works ("...Listen to His Legacy" and "...Wrappin' It Up.")
     
  11. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Even though the Japanese Victor box may have its problems, I think the bigger problem is RCA never released all of the Victor sides in the US on CD. I had to buy these two sets just to get most of the Victor Years on CD.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The 10CD set (I Had to Do It) has some pretty bad sound quality. Sing, Sing, Sing is unlistenable. Some tracks are ok. The 20 disc set, much to my surprise, has much better SQ, although I've just recently received it and haven't had time to listen to every track. About half of the 20 disc box has the same tracks but perplexingly, they are mixed better.

    I very much appreciate the discographies for Goodman, such as yours. His work is hard to track down (especially before the internet), and they make collecting a much more pleasurable experience. My bank account, however... yikes!
     
  12. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    One more thing to add about the 20disc set... I haven't yet gotten to the Columbia Years to cross-reference the Mosaic Columbia/Okeh set (its taking me forever to get through the Victor Years). But I never realized how far it is from a "complete" set. The 20 disc set adds about 30-40% to the number of tracks. It is missing some of the Victor tracks from the 8x2s/16Lp box just as the 10-disc set was, but if you want a pretty complete view of the 1928-45 Goodman, buy the 20 disc box and the Complete RCA Victor Small Groups set. The 20 disc has Carnegie (poorly EQ'd) and the second (1939) Carnegie set as well.

    So getting to the very first question of this thread, if I were going to recommend building a Benny Goodman collection, I'd start with the 20disc set + RCA Complete Small Group set. I found the former for $29.99 used and the latter for a little less. $60 bucks gets you Benny up to the Capitol Years. Not too shabby. SQ is another issue for later.
     
  13. Discog Dave

    Discog Dave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Rochester NY USA
    Staying strictly with the Victor era... imagine yourself in 1973. You want to hear everything from Benny, 1935-39. What choices have you got?

    Out-of-print LPs and LP sets, most with RCA's...er, interesting "enhanced sound" or wonky equalization in the case of the budget-label RCA Camden releases (which is what this kid from a middle-class household could afford) - and in sum, woefully incomplete coverage. The Carnegie Hall and "Jazz Concert #2" sets from Columbia, which despite re-equalization (for the Carnegie) still sounded pretty good then.

    The Driggs-produced Bluebird sets were eye openers for me and others I've talked to - cuts not available since their 78rpm incarnations, a few previously unissued alternate takes. There are a few problems there, some of which carried through to the digital reissues (off-speed transfers, poor sound sources, some available alternate takes not reissued due to preferences/orders of higher-ups at RCA). I know that the sets were assembled on tight budgets and deadlines, and sometimes had to depend on sources supplied by collectors (note the acknowledgements on some volumes). Plus, Elvis Presley's passing in 1977 scuttled programs like this reissue series for a time as manufacturing turned to filling the demand for his work.

    The Connor-Hicks 1969 book was everybody's roadmap for collecting the music, and Russ' 1988 book is presently the basic replacement for that. To assist with research for my book, I assembled my own CD-R set of the RCA-era orchestra tracks (filling nine discs) by using the 2-LP sets as a base and dropping in tracks from other sources (mostly 78s, sometimes other LPs, at least once via tape from Russ).
    I long ago resigned myself to devoting a ton of space to LPs, CDs, cassettes, 78s, transcriptions, and test pressings - to evaluate, comment on, and try to answer queries from fellow collectors.

    The Victor studio sessions were relatively simple compared to the Columbia sessions that followed. Victor generally processed and kept only one, two, maybe three, occasionally four takes of a particular selection.

    Columbia (and its successor, Sony) never comprehensively compiled even a set of master takes of the material they own, let alone the countless alternates that exist. For most of the time Goodman was under contract to Columbia, they recorded his sessions on 16-inch lacquers that you can think of as the disc equivalents of "keeping the tape rolling" in the studio. Tapes made from those lacquers had gotten out to various collectors and others. Those, plus test pressings in collectors' hands were the source of the two worthwhile series of LP issues of those things: Anders Ohman's Phontastic "Alternate Goodman" and Jerry Valburn's "The Un-heard Benny Goodman." Ohman did reissue his Phontastic LPs as "Goodman - The Different Version" CD sets. Valburn retired from the business as CDs were supplanting LPs.

    Putting the Mosaic "Classic Columbia and OKeh Sessions" on the shelf along with the Sony Special Products "Complete Helen Forrest With Benny Goodman" and Sony's 2-CD "Peggy Lee With Benny Goodman" gets you a reasonable overview of the orchestra cuts. The four-CD box from Sony (2002) covering Charlie Christian is as meticulously complete as could be, barring some brief snatches of music that were not in the vaults and could not be obtained from collectors who held copies. The post-Christian small groups were covered on a couple late '80s CDs from Columbia. But then there's stuff with Art Lund, the several female vocalists not named Helen or Peggy....
     
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  14. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    My attention was just brought to this site:A Jazz Anthology MP3 Choose listen download MP3 tunes jazz artists
    It has an amazing about of things from all kinds of jazz greats. It is not complete but there are lots of early Goodman and the Victors here. It’s MP3 but still a pretty neat reference source. For CDs, again not complete, highly recommend the HEP Goodman’s, even if you have the above sets. They have the best soun
     
  15. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Glad you joined the conversation. I mentioned your book. Thanks for your work. It helped me to find some things and has me in search of the 2 disc Savory set with the “whilsting” Let’s Dance. Are they anywhere to be found?

    Around 1979, I started with the 2 record sets of the Victors and kept collecting from there! I never bothered with the 16 record set, but did get my hands on the unicorn Japanese CD set. They all have there problems. I sure do wish Mosaic records would do the Victors and get Loren Schoenberg to do the notes. That would be perfection!

    For the Columbia vocals there are also: “The best of Art Lund: Band Singer”, “Dick Haynes with Harry James and Benny Goodman” and “Benny’s Girls” all on the Collectors Choice Music label. Unfortunately, two of my favorite vocal tracks “Dearly Beloved” Ana “I’m Old Fashioned” are only one the Chronological Classics label in poor sound.
     
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  16. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Wow. Great find. Lotsa nice stuff there.
     
  17. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Do you know if there is any indication that the major labels (Sony and whoever owns RCA now) have any predilection to release anymore big Goodman sets? I know from in-depth conversations with people at Universal, that the Motown back-catalog is super low priority and some of the on-going reissues of original, expanded edition Motown albums have slowed almost to a halt due to shifts to digital and lack of interest in material from the 60s. I can only imagine the poor market conditions for sound from the 30s and 40s.

    Thanks for the details. These are all very interesting on their own, but also helpful for amateur collectors like myself.
     
  18. Discog Dave

    Discog Dave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Rochester NY USA
    LeeP -

    Agreed re' sound quality of the Hep CDs, with John R T Davies' remastering.

    Glad you found a copy of that Japanese CD set.

    I've asked/urged Scott Wenzel at least a couple times about the Victors. At this time, for too many reasons, it seems that won't happen.

    I looked quickly in my notes for any readily accessible and good-sounding CD of the two Buzz Alston vocals you like. Came up empty.
    The best I can say is that luckily both are on the same 78 - Columbia 36641. It's a fairly common disc, if you're 78-capable.
    Great tunes; I love 'em both - as performed by Glenn Miller. I've got Alston's mis-singing of the lyrics to "I'm Old-Fashioned" noted as a key to which take is which. :oops:

    ella_swings -

    I don't see any indication that Sony (for Columbia) and Sony (for RCA) has any interest in releasing anything by Goodman at this time. Nor in allowing farm-outs/leasing material to outfits like the late, lamented Collectors' Choice Music. I thought the situation was bad a decade ago when I was evaluating then-current releases for my book... now there's nothing to evaluate.

    Stuff does turn up out of the blue - that 2011 CD/LP/mp3 release of the October 15 1959 Freiberg concert was a pleasant surprise. More things like that may lie ahead.
     
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  19. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    Many thanks and sorry to read that last bit about Sony/Sony not even wanting to farm out material. I grabbed the Freiberg concert on a tip down thread. I guess my recent purchase of a new USB turntable to rip some of my old LPs might be the only way forward to get them onto my iPhone/iPad for my frequent travels. I'm glad I got on a Goodman binge back about 2003/04. Now even some of the CDs that were plentiful then are gone or prohibitively expensive. I just hate the fragile dust pies (78s) but might have to reconsider them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  20. ella_swings

    ella_swings Forum Resident

    I just found the Circle CDs and they are fantastic. Many nice air checks for anyone interested. I especially like the SQ on the Let's Dance set. I have the Sunbeams and the sound is quite bad on those. I also have some of the Congress Hotel Lps and these CDs have better SQ. I've avoided buying them since I had them on LP but these are so much better. All are recommended.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  21. Discog Dave

    Discog Dave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Rochester NY USA
    The "Let's Dance" airchecks that eventually appeared on Circle were stunners when I first heard a cassette from raw disc transfers. "I Got Rhythm" in particular knocked me out, but I've got a lot of affection for the whole repertoire of the band at this time.

    Because these were first-generation discs, well preserved, and transferred to the digital realm by Bill Savory, you're hearing those tunes in about as ideal a way as is possible today. The Sunbeam "Let's Dance" LPs were mostly x-th generation tapes from various sources. It's great to have those performances at all, but you lose the crispness of the band and NBC's top-flight acoustics. (No matter how classical mavens down-talk NBC's studio 8-H, the Circle CD shows how good it could sound for the Goodman gang.)

    The Congress Hotel airshot CDs are actually sourced from copy tapes of the Sunbeam LP master tapes. Fun story there: this was an opportunity to "legitimize" those broadcasts for release. Circle's producer asked his source if he had copies of the LPs. The source had something better: what he believed were first-generation dubs from the aircheck discs. (More on that below.)

    A top-flight restoration engineer worked on the tapes; he did what was possible given the budget and the times (this was 1997-8; there's been a lot of progress in digital restoration technology since then).

    All four Circle releases (CCD-50, "Let's Dance" and CCD-171 / 2 / 3, Congress Hotel) were authorized by the Goodman Estate... back in the days when those working for the Estate had known Benny personally and were invested in keeping his name and musical reputation well publicized.

    Back to Congress sources: the tapes' owner and I genially disagreed over their provenance. He'd believed the original airchecks were 16" 33 1/3 rpm monitor lacquers from NBC, and his tapes were direct dubs.

    It seemed to me (clued in mostly by the surface noise on the transfers) the originals were sets of 78 rpm discs taken off the air, and that what my friend had were copies of the master tapes prepared by Alan Roberts for his Sunbeam LPs.

    Research and time got me correspondence from the previous owner of the set of original discs: they were 12" 78 rpm aluminum discs. Where those discs are now (if they still exist) is a mystery. As with so many other things from this time, we're lucky to have these performances at all.
     
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  22. Elmo

    Elmo Forum Resident

    What about Mosaic? Is Sony still willing to lease to Mosaic? I'd sure like to see Mosaic do a complete Victor BG box one day.
     
  23. Elmo

    Elmo Forum Resident

    What's your opinion of the Chronological Classics series?
     
  24. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    Hope springs eternal but I heard for the time being Sony is not leasing out to other labels. I believe the upcoming Louis Armstrong set (including the 1946/47 RCA records and the Columbia’s from the fifties, namely The W C Handy and Fats Waller albums with lots of alternates) just made it under the wire.
     
  25. LeeP

    LeeP Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    The Chronological classics are spotty on sound quality. Though not everything, the HEPs are essential. I recently got the French RCA double cd sets and they, again not complete, have a pretty good sound, a little too bright, but not bad. The 2 Harry James years cds on RCA aren’t horrible, not as bad as Birth of a Band, and there are alternates on the first volume. For the small groups the complete 3 cd set is probably best and does have the bonus of Loren Schoenberg’s liner notes (Loren did liner notes for the Harry James years too).
     
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