Record Cleaning Options - Kind of slowly losing my sanity*

A good approach, it seems to me. Reminds me somewhat of the principle behind a "layered" approach to Internet security.

Yeah, I suppose you're right, but I'm not sure. I hope @pacvr will clarify this.

 

The fundamental problem with any brush, is cleanliness. It may be very clean to start, but over time (and use) it becomes for want of a better word - saturated with particles. Once the brush (or record mat) becomes saturated with particles, it no longer can do its job. And this is very easy to see both the brush and what's happening on the record with a simple UV light - Alonefire SV003 10W 365nm UV Flashlight Portable Rechargeable Blacklight for Pet Urine Detector, Resin Curing, Scorpion, Fishing, Minerals with Aluminum Case, Battery Charger, Battery Included - - Amazon.com. Otherwise, NASA did a test of brushes, and the results were interesting - 20120000070.pdf (nasa.gov). Otherwise, if you are the least bit OCD, stay away from the UV light. You cannot keep the record absolutely free of particles - you will also see where many records sleeves initially shed some particles (oh well, it's an imperfect world). It's not possible in a standard residential setting. You only need to keep the record clean enough and but that is an existential question for each person.

Personally, I have no patience with trying to keep up with the cleanliness of a brush or the periodic replacement. So, everything I use is intended to be easily maintained cleaned and last.
-The Kinetronics Tiger Cloth only needs a simple shake to dislodge particles - it's the design of the fabric. I also use it to wipe down the Teflon rod to remove the particles/fibers it picks up and the Orbit Blower has a HEPA filter on the suction so it stays clean, and I may use the Orbit Blower to try to blow away a piece of particulate from the record the Teflon rod misses.
-The silicone tack (not very sticky) roller I use once per day of play for the platter is easily cleaned periodically with tap water & then a quick DIW rinse, and let dry Mop, Silicone Roller for Dirt, 4/6/8/12 Inch Anti-Static Roller for Cleaning Screen, Glass and Film(12'') (amazon.com) .
-The only consumable brush I use is to dust the table and arm. I use no dust cover, I have wall-to-wall carpet, I wear no special clothing, my home does not have a HEPA filter, but following the NASA report - I use a fingerprint brush (good for about a year) - LIGHTNING POWDER Zephyr Fiberglass Fingerprint Brush (amazon.com). I do not use this for the record - wrong application.

Fundamentally, I get the record as clean as possible initially to provide margin for it to get dirty during use, handling and play w/o any deleterious effects. From cleanroom technology, they know how fast (velocity) a particle based on its size drops vertically. Once the record is spinning, only the larger particles we can see can essentially drop onto (not into) the record, and those are relatively easy to remove. My before each record play regime is 10-20 sec. 20-sec is for those records whose vinyl holds on to particles. For me, every record new or old gets initially cleaned the same, and every record gets the same before play - it's just habit, no need to think about it, I just do it.

As far as what may be happening in the groove, from the book,
-VI.13.2 If we assume the maximum tip mass at 0.4 mg and the diamond is 33%, then the diamond weighs about 0.13 mg. If it takes 1000-hrs to wear the diamond to the point that facets are formed - for sake of analysis let’s assume 20% of the diamond mass has been worn away. Therefore, (0.13 mg diamond)(0.2) = 0.026 mg = 26 ug. If it took 1000 hrs to do this, then the diamond is wearing away at about (26 ug/1000) = 0.026 ug/hr.

-VI.13.3 If each record play/side is ~20 min (0.333 hrs), then for each record play (0.026 ug/hr)(0.333hrs/side) = 0.009 ug or about 9 pico-grams. This has to exist as a very, very fine powder and the finest diamond powder you can buy is 100,000 grit which is 0.25 micron. So, the diamond wear powder on the record is probably less which in the end becomes inconsequential so long as there is no cleaner residue.

-VI.13.4 If whatever wear byproduct powder that is produced by the diamond and the record is kept dry and free of oily and sticky residue, the stylus should move through this without any affect – not unlike a light coating of very dry powder-snow, it just blows around.

However, after all is said and done, I am only sharing what I have learned with some attempt to provide a reasonable technical explanation. I make no claims that my way is THE way. I will always say, the best way is the one that is best for you.

Good Luck,

 

That is a way, but it tends to be time consuming, and there 'may' be deleterious effects in-between until cleanliness is established. An automobile from a cleaning standpoint is very complex - many different materials, many different finishes and many different geometries. The lowly simple record is one material, one finish, and one geometry. The wet process I use (similar to the precision cleaning industry) is in a way an iterative process - it moves through various steps to achieve cleanliness but confined to one complete process.

However, the best way is the one that is best for you. We are all way too different to confine ourselves to just one way.

Take care,
Neil

 

So you are saying that the use of any brush is, after some number of uses, detrimental. I understand that you don't have the patience for periodic cleaning of the brush itself, but if I may ask, what sort of cleaning procedure are you thinking would be required in order to keep either a carbon fiber or Discwasher-type brush clean? The use of a second brush (such as the stiff bristle type that was supplied with the Discwasher) to clean the main brush is not feasible/acceptable?

Sold!

Er, maybe not.

I had one of these back in the '80s that was for cleaning the record itself, but I was concerned that it might cause problems and so stopped using it. What is your view about the use of this kind (i.e., designed for vinyl record cleaning) of sticky roller on the records themselves?

Interesting product, including one of the more intriguing product reviews I've come across.....

It's been a while since I've read your other posts in this thread, so I don't recall what your before-each-play cleaning method is (and if you've indicated it here, I've somehow missed it). What then do you use to clean the record before each play?
Thank you very much for your beyond-the-call-of-duty explanations!

 

I'll back up that OCD comment. Avoid UV and high intensity LED torches if you have these tendencies. The truth is always awful.

 

Carbon Fiber - 'maybe' alcohol. But it all depends on the fiber quality, and too much may cause clumping of the fibers depending on the quality - what is the ratio of carbon to resin - do not know if it's all the same Microsoft Word - Gordon Brush - Bristle Brush Material Descriptions (testequity.com). Not something I am going to investigate; I leave that to you.

Cloth - a detergent but one that will not damage the foam backing and you need to rinse with DIW and and then let hopefully w/o any mold developing in the backing that may be damaged with a solvent. Not something I am going to investigate; I leave that to you if you want.

I don't use it on the record - only the platter. The roller I use is not very sticky so the risk is that it will push the particle 'into' the groove. And the risk of any brush is doing the same.

I do not clean the record before each play - I deep wet clean once - (3) Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-3rd Edition | Steve Hoffman Music Forums.

Take care,

 

OK, I kinda thought that from some other things you'd said, but then I read this and thought otherwise:

Anyway, thanks again for your expert assistance.

 

I'd strongly recommend against washing carbon fiber brushes, the bristles will clump together. I've read some fibers are coated with a finish that is alcohol-soluble. I don't know if that is true, but I do

I just knock mine with an old credit card, mist the tips with some distilled water, then sweep for a couple of revolutions for the record. By the time that side is done playing, the bristles are dry and the process can be repeated for the next side.

The bristles may hang onto some particles between "knockings," but generally speaking my records are quieter with each cleaning/playing cycle, so they have to be removing more than they're contributing.

 

I'm happy with my VPI 16.5 RCM. I've had it since 2007 and it works quite well. (it's gone up in price quite a bit since then)

 

After some issues with my Squeaky Clean manual turn RCM I found a used VPI 16.5 for a reasonable price. I've been using it for a week or two now and overall it seems to be doing well, about the same as my Squeaky Clean. But I'm still getting use to it.

Some questions for experienced VPI users.

I previously used spray bottles to disperse solutions and DIW. But was getting a lot of suds build up on top of the unit. So I picked up a couple of condiment squeeze bottles for the Liquinox and Triton X100 mixes. I'm still using a spray bottle for the DIW. Can anyone tell me if there is any danger in the liquid sitting on top of the unit? As long as I periodically wipe/soak it up am I okay?

The first time I used it I washed a bunch of records and suddenly found water under and around the unit, a fairly large amount. Am I correct in assuming that the drain tank had overflowed? How often do you drain the tank? I certainly don't want this to happen again.

 

Ahhhhh… BLIND SPOT! Mine that is. The platter!

Okay… what are people’s experience with platters? Any that do a great job of holding the record and keeping them generally clean? I seem to recall that Neil uses a custom one.

 

Andrew,

May I suggest you do a search for "platter mats"; you will have lots to read.

Otherwise, I use a DIY - ESD-Vinyl-Mats-Datasheet-3059.pdf (bertech.com) ; you can buy Bertech ESD Three Layer Vinyl Mat Kit (Made in USA), 2.5 Feet Wide x 3 Feet Long x 0.094 Inches Thick, Gray, Includes a Wrist Strap and Grounding Cord, RoHS and REACH Compliant: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific For me, I found it to work very well with the VPI aluminum platter. The material is the right thickness, it's not soft, the surface is easy to keep clean, and the 3-layer design helps with controlling static. I just used a platter mat as a template, and it cuts easy with scissors. But since it has no label depression, its only good with a reflex/screw-down clamp. Beyond that I use a Technics mat to keep the platter clean when not in use. The Technics rubber mat on the VPI aluminum platter was a disaster - too soft, it sucked the life out of the music.

Take care,
Neil

 

I usually drain the tank on my VPI 16.5 pretty often after having a similar issue the very first time I used it. I'll do a dump every couple records to be safe (I wash and do at least one DW rinse per side).

Also made the mistake of not clamping the drain tube before my first session (my used 16.5 was missing the clamp) which caused water to fill into the unit rather than the tank and pool below. The press board on the bottom got a bit bulged out as a result. Learned that lesson the hard way...

I love the 16.5 but man it gets pretty hot at the spindle after about 6 or 7 records. I've had records dish temporarily from the heat which freaks me out. They've always flattened out when cooled off but it stops me from long cleaning sessions. I've seen pics of a pretty easy fan mod to cool it down, wish I was confident enough that I wouldn't mess it up.

 

Interesting that brush cleanliness comes up now, as just yesterday I picked up the DiscDoctor brush I reserve for AI Enzyme solution and found it had some white residue on it. So I took a stiff nylon brush (like a VPI with a wood handle) and brushed it clean. I usually take the DiscDoctor brush I use for normal cleaning on the Loricraft and flush it with DW whenever I re-fill the Degritter tank, but I see I should remember to do both brushes.

 

It sounds like your tank overflowed.

I empty the tank about every 5 - 6 records. But I tend to put a lot of liquid on. Used records (or problem records) I use the Mo-Fi Enzyme Liquid combined with a few drops of Disc Doctor record wash as a surfactant. I let a good amount sit on the record surface for a least 5 minutes. Some heavily soiled records it soaks for longer.

For brand new records that need a cleaning I just use a small amount of cleaning fluid.

In either case I use copious amounts of distilled washer to rinse; running a coulple of rinse cycles until there is absolutely no bubbles visible in the vacuum wand.

I also found that you have to seal of the tygon tubing drain line with the plastic clamp really well or the vacuum suction doesn't work as well. I once left the drain line, not properly clamped, in my collection bucket and that's when my tank overflowed. It was drawing up water from the bucket backwards through the drain line in addition to trying to pull the water off the record.

 

Is there any danger of gumming up the works (vacuum &/or turntable motor) from solution and water accumulating on top of the unit and seeping down? I use a lot of solution and a lot gets on the base around the platter.

 

Maybe you want to reduce the amount of fluid being used, but it looks like there is space in the corners to put down some absorbent to collect some of the overflow?

 

I use a VPI 16.5 - I have had it a few months now and I love it (upgrade from Spin Clean).

I was told when I purchased it as a refurbishment model to make sure I clamp the hose which I have draining into a bottle, so that the vacuum works properly.
I release the clamp and tilt the machine 45 degrees to drain after about 3-4 record cleans.

One mistake I did make though, was letting liquid pool on the top of the machine (around the platter) and it did seep into the edge (corner) in one place and caused a bulge.
I was was angry at myself at the time

Now I make sure I keep some paper towel on hand and mop up any spills around the platter each LP I clean as it is hard to not get some drips here and there.

 

Yes, I'll try cutting a microfiber cloth into smaller squares and putting them in each corner. I switched from the spay bottles for the cleaning solutions to squeeze bottles to apply and that helped, but I'm still using the spray bottle for the distilled water rinse. I'm afraid the squeeze bottle won't distribute the water well enough to rinse out the residual solution.

 

Thanks, I'll have to be diligent in moping up it appears.

 

One other VPI 16.5 lesson learned the hard way.....

The platter can get warm after long use and over time (5+ years) the adhesive holding the cork mat to the platter had started to creep out from the edges.

Discovered this after cleaning a rather special Miles Davis, Round 'Bout Midnight. Upon listening to my supposedly clean record, it had a new, nasty sounding noise about a minute into track A1. Turns out some of the adhesive from the edge of the platter had contacted the record surface and left residue which I haven't been able to remove.

Now I use a separate rubber platter mat on top of the cork to prevent this issue.

 

Not sure what spray bottles you using, but these are the ones I use - Pinnacle Mercantile Plastic Spray Bottles USA Made 4 Pack 16 Oz Heavy Duty No Leak Empty Refillable Spray Bottle Mist Stream for Cleaning Solutions, Plant, Hair, Bleach, Vinegar, Alcohol Safe: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific and with just a slow quarter to half pull on the trigger I can control how much spray is delivered to the record.

 

You can first try to spot remove the adhesive with some isopropyl alcohol and if that doesn't work you can try some Zippo (or Ronson) lighter fluid. If you try either, just follow up with a normal clean.

 

This brush is really cheap and works better than any on the platter duster I've ever used.

Amazon.com

Highly recommended. All records cleaned with a Record Doctor then a final pass with this on the spinning platter and the records are pretty pristine.

 

I doubt it. The tanks are quite large and you'd have to clean a lot of records to fill it up. The more likely reason is a leak somewhere, possibly where the hose is attached to the tank. Or, this happens with Okki Nokki machines sometimes, the water, when sucked down into the reservoir, will sometimes not drain straight into the tank and goes off to the sides and down into the machine and out the bottom.

Since it's out of warranty I would open it up and have a look inside and check any lose hose connections. It might be very obvious where the water was coming from as well as it might have left traces.

I would just drain your tank after each cleaning session. That should be enough.