SH Spotlight Recording and Mastering Questions---Answered here. Any more?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Apr 20, 2006.

  1. Raf

    Raf Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    Yup. The Capitol stereo version has lots of added echo. The Capitol mono has added echo too, but not as much as the stereo.
     
  2. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Listen to the edit after the solo.

    I'll pull it out again, but in the past it sounded like every other stereo version I have. The EQ is a bit odd on the box, but that's it.

    I'll try and post clips later.
     
  3. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    :) Can we get back to "Recording and Mastering Nomenclature Questions" now? Thanks, campers!
     
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  4. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort Staff

    Steve,

    Do you know if there were other studios who regularly compressed "echo returns", other than Gold Star or; was Gold Star unique in this practice? I believe I am hearing this "effect" on non-Gold Star recorded vintage tracks as well. Of course, this could simply be compression added to the Mono or Stereo "master" when it was executed...

    Bob :)
     
  5. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    Bob,

    I believe you are hearing compression artifacts depending on when the echo was added; during recording, mixing or mastering.

    As far as I know, Dave Gold was the only studio designer who hit upon the idea of PRE-COMPRESSING THE ECHO before it hit the console again. A nifty trick that I have used a few times myself. Also the GOLD STAR echo had basically no top end (on purpose) and a rich resonance around 500 cycles. It gave it that "sound" that Phil Spector, Brian Wilson and others loved so much. Gold Star was also the cheapest studio in town as well so that helped! :)

    Listen to Herb Alpert and the TJB's MEXICAN SHUFFLE at the intro. When the intro cold stops you can clearly hear the special "quality" of the echo chamber. Unique!
     
  6. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort Staff

    Thanks Steve!

    That helps and I appreciate the history as well...

    Bob :)
     
  7. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    Bob,

    Abbey Road circa 1962-67 had a unique echo system. Big stereo echo chamber run through an analog tape delay (like Sun Records) and fed back into the mix. You can hear that on all Beatle records of that era, Hollies, etc. Anything recorded in Number 2. A neat, unique sound, not hard to replicate by the way. Too bad no one thought of doing it for the HELP/RUBBER SOUL remixes, etc.
     
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  8. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    No added echo/reverb on I Feel Fine or She's A Woman? But I get your point. However I believe there is additional compression (in varying degrees) on the Capitol "cutting masters" (thus making any echo or reverb more noticable).

    Oooops. Thread crap. Sorry.
     
  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The following clip has a transfer from a Parlophone "-3" pressing as well as the Capitol box version EQ'd and level adjusted to (more or less - it was quick) match. The only other processing was some light click reduction on the LP dub, although the vinyl was pretty quiet to begin with. I won't say the order, but it shouldn't be too hard to tell.

    I'll Be Back stereo sample

    I don't hear any difference in echo. Do you?
     
  10. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The stereo IFF/SAW were certainly processed Duophonic. I don't know if anyone really knows if the US mono mixes had the echo on them before they got to Capitol, though.

    Check out the I'll Be Back clip...
     
  11. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort Staff

    Interesting! I get the impression that this echo could be punched "in" and "out" during the recording in order to achieve certain effects during the recording. Is this correct? An example might be the different echo effects at different places on "No Reply" by The Beatles. You can especially hear this on the Stereo mix...

    Bob :)
     
  12. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    When did the word re-master come into use and what does it mean?!?

    Surely everytime a master is used to cut a lacquer in order to make a vinyl record or a master is used to prepare a digital "production master" in order to make a CD/SACD/DVD-A the process is called "mastering" - why the redundant "re...."?
     
  13. Doug Hess Jr.

    Doug Hess Jr. Forum Resident

    Location:
    Belpre, Ohio
    I'd like to expand a bit on the DUB part of Overdubbing. I've read discussions here about a couple of the CD's you've mastered from the "undubbed" master. And other times on other CD's, even newly recorded ones, where a track is listed as the DUB mix. Could you clear that up. I understand from my earlier pre-digital radio days we'd make a dub of a spot to send to another station or dub a spot or song to a cart. But I don't get the "undubbed" master and DUB mix.
     
  14. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    First used in the "Vintage Music" RCA-Victor LP series in the early 1960's to denote remastering of 78 metal parts for the LP's. First ever remastering credit from 1960: "Remastered By Don Lipskin.
     
  15. pig whisperer

    pig whisperer CD Member

    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    My guess would be that the first time around it is mastered. When it is redone at a different date it is remastered. (and we get to talk about the digital masters vs. the remasters) :)


    Q. Why is it that two CDs from the same pressing (first run, for example) made with the same masters can sometimes sound different?
     
  16. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    Doug,

    As far as I know a "Dub Mix" is a Jamaican thing where a DJ dubs something, his voice, etc. over a Reggae hit (also called a "Version"). Something like that at any rate. Don't know of any other usage of that term except in the world of Club music.

    An underdub is a recording that is not finished to the hit standards of the actual record. Example: LOCOMOTION by Little Eva. The British copy tape was dubbed from the technically unfinished American work part and therefore does not contain the handclaps that appear on the USA 45. The British copy tape is technically an underdub (by mistake). The finished master with the hand claps is the actual master even though it sounds much worse, sound quality wise (due to the extra generation loss).

    I've used a few underdubs in my time; usually to eliminate fake audience noises, etc.
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    Punched in and out? No, just raised or lowered like any studio echo. The thing is that the Abbey Road chambers were very dynamic. When the music got louder, the echo got louder. When the compressor held back the music from getting louder, the compressed echo got even LOUDER!

    Get me? :)
     
  18. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Yeah, I'm still hoping you'll "remaster" that Chris Montez CD this time using the master of "Call Me" instead of the underdub - doesn't sound the same without the chinking of the wine glasses..... ;)
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    They actually found the wineglass effect tape loop so that could be done now. About as much chance of that happening as getting Chris a new contract with A&M.
     
  20. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    You mean the original master never had that on? Or they lost the master and ony have the underdub and, now, the effects tape too?
     
  21. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    The original 45 and LP mono mix was mixed with the three-track tape (hand claps and background vocals on one channel, music on another and Chris' vocal on the third, recorded at RCA-Victor, Hollywood) and an audience noise tape and the wine glass tape. Three tape machines going to a fourth machine recording the creation. That is why the original stereo version of the song is fake stereo from the mono mix. Too complicated to try it again. They got it once, in mono. That was enough studio money spent!
     
  22. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist


    You mean the lacquers were cut from three tapes running together with the mix going straight to the lathe or the mono mix tape?

    If so does that mean that any CDs with the full effects laden "Call Me" are needledrops?
     
  23. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort Staff

    Got it! :thumbsup:

    It is too bad that these wonderful chambers were later used for storage instead of being used in recordings...

    Bob :(
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Mastering Engineer Your Host Thread Starter

    The mono mix tape used to exist in the 1980's but no idea if it still does. It was on Scotch 211 series tape so the oxide could have fallen off of that crappy tape stock by now. The JPN CD I have has the song in typical fake stereo.
     
  25. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist

    Gotcha - although all that post editing freaked me out there for a moment!

    :D
     

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