Records noisier after cleaning - any ideas?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by LivingForever, Jul 5, 2021.

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  1. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    Ok, this might get long so I apologise…

    I recently took a batch of records to a local record shop who specialise in cleaning vinyl, using a multi-step process (including both vacuum and ultrasonic machines). I don’t wish to say anything negative about them, because as far as I can tell they are totally above board and they have many genuine customer testimonials from people who have had great results from their service. My contact there has been nothing but professional and understanding in trying to resolve issues with me.

    However, it seems that something they are doing is basically incompatible with my set-up, because every single one of the 40 records I’ve checked so far are noisier than they were when I took them in- and in some cases significantly so. Every side of every record now plays with continual light crackle and many with some louder pops here and there. Sometimes the crackle reduces after one play; sometimes it doesn’t.

    Many of the records I took were old, second-hand and covered in fingerprints and/or mould, so I didn’t expect miracles but I did expect improvement.

    What is really confusing is that some records which I bought brand new a couple months ago, but I decided to get cleaned because of tiny spots of noise here and there, are also now playing with this basically continual crackle and pop.

    Things I have tried:

    - Changing my AT VM540ML stylus for another one (same)
    - changing to a different cart completely (an AT95E elliptical) (same)
    - Playing other records from my collection (all sound normal)
    - Playing new records out of the shrink wrap (sound fine.)
    - Trying a couple of the records on my other deck in the other room with an Ortofon 2M Blue on it (the noise was a little less on this setup but I had played these same records several times with the ML by this point so not necessarily a fair test…)

    The record shop suggested that it sounds like a static problem, but they also zap the records with an anti stat gun before putting them in anti stat inner sleeves, and they don’t stick to the mat like some brand new records I have tried.

    I’m at my wits’ end here, so has anyone got any suggestions that either me or the record shop could be trying to eradicate this noise that wasn’t on the records when I took them in? I can only guess at what has caused it…
     
  2. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Well in my experience, they have loosened the dirt, but its not been removed.
    I can appreciate how disturbing this can be for you.
    I would not disturb the tone arm settings.
    This is a record issue.
    All I can suggest is to buy some winyl
    And carefully apply it.
    Use masking tape to remove it.
    This is what I would do.
    It does seriously remove all the gunge.
    When I clean records and I clean all my records, this is the last stage.
    In 50 years its the best method I know.
    Use a small tin( tuna?) I cover mine in felt.
    Rest record on top and use the supplied syringe and your finger to carefully spread it I cover run out groove,
    But watch out for the label.
    Good luck!
     
    LivingForever likes this.
  3. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Please do not use sellotape!!!!
     
  4. csgreene

    csgreene Forum Resident

    Location:
    Idaho, USA
    A common tale of woe with record cleaning.
     
    Bradd, VinylSoul, caracallac and 2 others like this.
  5. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    If your records are noisier after cleaning, I can only think of one suggestion / recommendation..... which can be deduced from the title of the thread.
     
    LivingForever likes this.
  6. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    I can only suggest you take the most offending offender, and under the sink with a faucet water filter, give the record a robust scrubbing using a soapy water solution and a discwasher style brush or other fine synthetic brush. Follow up with ample rinsing, and a shake and spin dry to remove as much tap water, then a final rinse with distilled. A vacuum slit wand drying would be ideal.

    [​IMG]
    Easier if you make a handle and holder out of a 7mm (M7) bolt, washer, and nuts, or even easier if you have the assistance of a power screwdriver to spin the water away from the label.

    Good idea to make a digital recording before and after - and actually, you might make another digital recording before and after another record store service to show they are making records worse. All "professional" machines are really just enthusiast/audiophile kludges, as none have what is needed - connection to a water supply and drain.

    A much longer wait time per disc is a glue cleaning and peel with Titebond II.
     
  7. Ingenieur

    Ingenieur Just a dog looking for a home...

    Location:
    Back in PA
    If you are daring try this on an lp you care less about:
    Lay out few microfiber rags or cotton towels
    A spray bottle of distilled water DW
    Cotton ball soaked with isopropyl alcohol
    Simply Green spray or similar, mild solution

    -rinse lp in sink with cool tap water, avoid label as much as possible
    -wipe well with cotton ball and rinse, rinse..
    -spray with SG and swipe with soft wet rag
    -Rinse, rinse, rinse
    -shake off water
    -spray thoroughly with DW
    -shake off water
    -lay on rags and press dry, do not rub
    -air dry for 5-10 minutes

    see if it helps
    sounds like they left something on the lp's.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2021
  8. Wayne Nielson

    Wayne Nielson Forum Resident

    Location:
    My House
    If you've ever cleaned anything with water or cleaners and you do not get all of the liquid removed, it will adhere to the surface and dry, leaving all of the suspended contaminants as a film on the surface, now heard as noise.

    I gave up on wet cleaning a while ago and haven't looked back.
     
  9. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    I would ask them to clean them again.
     
  10. MarkD51

    MarkD51 Audio Maniac

    Location:
    Chicago Illinois
    And you know what that sounds like to me? "A sucker for punishment".
     
    VinylSoul likes this.
  11. TheVinylAddict

    TheVinylAddict Look what I found

    Location:
    AZ
    What did Einstein say about doing the same thing twice... :)
     
    Ingenieur likes this.
  12. Django

    Django Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    Vinyl's great, isn't it....:rolleyes:
     
    LivingForever and csgreene like this.
  13. MarkD51

    MarkD51 Audio Maniac

    Location:
    Chicago Illinois
    Well, I have heard the old saying "Fool me once".
     
  14. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Any idea what their process is?

    Generally speaking I think you're going to need to get something like a Vinyl Styl Deep Groove Cleaner or a Knosti Disco Anti-Stat, and use a combination of distilled water and alcohol (@pacvr can tell us the maximum safe amount of alcohol that can be used in one of these basins while being safe, he may have changed his ratio as his understanding of how alcohol evaporates from solutions has changed).

    But I'd just use alcohol and water and no detergents.

    I'd run the albums through that, change the fluid out maybe three times during the forty albums, and hope for the best.
     
    LivingForever likes this.
  15. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Not rinsed properly? What are you using as cleaning solution? It may leave a residue if you don't rinse well with distilled water.
     
    culabula, I333I and rcsrich like this.
  16. pacvr

    pacvr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Maryland
    There are any number of reasons why this occurred - the most likely is that the UT bath was dirty - the record is being cleaned in a bath of dirty water (did the UT tank have an external filter?). Another could be too much cleaner - too high a concentration that can then prove very difficult to rinse ultimately leaving cleaner residue. The fact that this happened to old and new records pretty much eliminates the outside chance that the cleaning removed residual residue leaving the actual record condition that was noisy.

    What to do now"

    1. You could go back and 'try' to get the person to reclean, but unless you know exactly what to look for, there may be no change.

    2. You could implement your own procedure - one of the cheapest is a simple manual procedure using a record label protector such as the Groovemaster - (used by the Library of Congress for lacquer records) - The Clear Choice For Cleaner Sound® (groovmaster.com) and a procedure such as that detailed in Vinyl Record Manual Cleaning Process (thevinylpress.com) that uses industrial precision cleaning agents (that are actually cheaper than the 'record cleaning agents"). Note that VinylStack is no longer in business. There are cheaper copycat versions of the Groovemaster but they are 1/3 the thickness, so cheap is cheap.

    There are other manual record cleaning processes, but the devil is in the details. Without those pesky details - what works for someone may not work for you.

    Beyond manual cleaning procedures you have machine assisted such as vacuum-RCM and ultrasonic cleaning, but these entail a lot more cost. Are they better? That all depends on your willingness for some 'sweat equity" and attention to detail.
     
  17. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    Thank you everyone for your thoughts. Whilst I was sensible enough not to take my most precious records to start with, there are some discs here where I struggled for ages to find a mostly quiet copy, and this cleaning phase was meant to remove that last few spots of noise. As you can imagine, I’m a bit fed up that I’m now back to square one with a lot of them…

    I don’t know the exact process being used, but the thing that confuses me is that I have records in my collection which I had cleaned on an Okki-Nokki vaccuum RCM, and they play absolutely silently.

    Surely using such a machine AND an ultrasonic cleaner could only result in even quieter records; no? (Apparently not…)

    I’m tempted to finally pull the trigger and somehow make room for my own RCM, but I’d be seriously annoyed if I did that and it still didn’t fix this problem.
     
  18. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    So the shop is actually very willing to try cleaning some of them again to see if we can fix the problem, but they're not really sure what they can do any differently.

    Apparently (and I have no reason to disbelieve this), all the other customers who used the service were extremely happy with the results. So either all the previous customers think crackle and pop is part of the vinyl experience, or something happened quite differently this time around. (which does suggest maybe trying again a few at a time would be a good idea...)
     
    Drifter and gabbleratchet7 like this.
  19. Man at C&A

    Man at C&A Senior Member

    Location:
    England
    I've used nothing but lukewarm tap water and a small bit of soap for many years to clean records. One play through on a lesser record player and stylus to dig out any residue (there's never much) then it's ready to go on my main stylus with no issues at all. I'm very fussy on vinyl surface noise so I'd definitely notice any problems. This works so well my friends give me their records to clean! It works on records that are absolutely filthy too. I've cleaned hundreds of records this way. Outside of an expensive cleaning machine I've not found a better way and I've tried plenty.
     
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  20. Morbius

    Morbius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookline, MA
    I think its just the simple fact that cleaning records is over emphasized. A record will never sound quieter than when it's first removed from it's protective sleeves. The best approach is to give it a precursory dusting with a carbon fiber brush and play it. Under only certain circumstances should you use an all purpose record cleaning solution and a hand held applicator for a more thorough cleaning. My records are infinitely quieter from handling them this way.
     
    Drifter likes this.
  21. Hardcore

    Hardcore Quartz Controlled

    Location:
    UK
    I’m not much of a cleaner, I’ll only do it when I can tell it’s necessary. I’ve never cleaned a new record but clean second hand ones when they arrive with a soft cotton cloth and the usual isopropyl/ distilled water formula.

    There’s something about ultrasonic cleaning that makes me feel uneasy when it comes to 30+ year old records but I know a lot of people swear by it so each to their own.
     
  22. LivingForever

    LivingForever Forum Arachibutyrophobic Thread Starter

    So that's all fine and good for brand new records (and my experience shows that sometimes records are quite noisy straight out of the sleeve anyway), but for 40+ year old records with years of grime and dirt on them?

    I keep coming back to: I have a good number of old records in my collection which were just cleaned on an Okki Nokki by a different shop (sadly not local to me!) and they play silently. Perhaps less is more?
     
  23. MarkD51

    MarkD51 Audio Maniac

    Location:
    Chicago Illinois
    Well, you've answered some of your own questions with this post and others.

    I came to the point in time, where I wanted to step up my game with record cleaning, and knew well that like another old saying that comes to mind, "if you want a job done right, you have to do it yourself".

    So, I'd say if you're in this game pretty much long term, wish to move forward, get the end results you seek, then I'd say do seriously consider getting yourself an RCM. Your struggles to achieve what you desire will become much easier.

    If for say a record that you have then cleaned still seems not optimal, there's no harm or foul to repeat a cleaning process. But with a decent RCM, and the right cleaning products and tools on hand, this is rarely required.

    The proverbial "piggy bank". Begin to stash money here and there on the side. Then, if you choose to not buy new, but prefer to save some money with a used RCM, then keep your eyes peeled for such. You might luckily find yourself at the right place at the right time.

    The only regret I have of buying myself an RCM, was I didn't buy one sooner.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
    LivingForever likes this.
  24. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital

    So many people complain about less that perfect cleaning machines and outcomes and I always suggest this method. In all the albums I have cleaned, the sound is much improved and the surface is so clean!

    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
     
    cjc, fish, Dan Steely and 5 others like this.
  25. richbdd01

    richbdd01 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    It may be a question of overall less than ideal condition vs inadequate cleaning methods. One of the most important part of record cleaning imo is the last bit….the removal of detergent and other contaminants.

    I personally don’t buy thrift or bargain bin records. Quite often they are trashed and you often get what you pay for.
     
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