Rega P8 vs VPI Super Prime Scout (Upscale Audio Edition) vs ?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by beowulf, Dec 8, 2018.

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  1. Guitarded

    Guitarded Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montana
    Both have their benefits.

    Specifically, a dealer can often tell you if you are chasing tone/performance or your tail. Then show/demonstrate the why / how.

    It all depends on the gear you have, the gear they have and their willingness to spend some time with you.

    Demoing gear at home is great, except you typically only have yourself there to answer your questions.
     
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  2. sbsbsb

    sbsbsb Forum Resident

    I'm in nearly the same boat, and overwhelmed by the options in this realm. I really have no idea what to do, particularly when demoing all of these just isn't an option:

    VPI Prime (thinking about going with the gimbal tonearm for ease of use)
    Rega Planar 8
    Clearaudio Performance DC
    SOTA Sapphire Series V
    Audio Note TT-2 Deluxe

    There are others I've kicked around as well, but those above currently appeal to me most. Distinguishing between them and settling on one for the long haul is the hard part.
     
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  3. riknbkr330

    riknbkr330 Senior Member

    Wait till all those records are sold into the used LP market....thanks hipsters for that.:shake:
     
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  4. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    That’s a pretty strong list, though I’d say the SOTA may not be quite up to the standard of the others.

    I had a friend who had one, and ‘cold and clinical’ is how I’d describe it. Not terribly musical or fun to listen to... very ‘CD-like’, and not in a good way. :(

    Lots of detail though, if that’s the main or only thing you care about.

    I’d also consider putting the Michell Gyro SE on the list, as that is a pretty amazing ‘table in that price class. :agree:
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  5. loudinny

    loudinny Forum Resident

    VPI - don’t be afraid of the unipivot. It’s much better than the gimbal and setup quite frankly isn’t as hard as some make it out to be....
     
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  6. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    If you have not already, I would upgrade to the Groovetracer subplatter and white belt. You get a lot of upgrade for very little investment.

    If you are not happy then, I doubt if you would really be any happier, moving up the Rega ladder.

    I would give more serious consideration to the direct drive models that have been suggested.
     
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  7. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Except that even the slightest warp changes the VTF.
     
  8. cut-out

    cut-out Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA, USA
    Maybe add an Acoustic Signature WOW to your list, too.
     
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  9. loudinny

    loudinny Forum Resident

    Meh, there are trade-offs with all designs. It’s negligible if setup properly and usually lies within a cart TF range .

    I still prefer unipivots, gimbals have their own issues.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  10. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    Respectfully disagree. If it doesn't sound good at the dealer, that's a good sign to move on and not waste your time. It's not a 100% sure thing, but darn close.

    M~
     
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  11. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    Wow! Has someone actually measured the VTF for a uni pivot VPI tonearm under those conditions? Even if it's true, does it affect the sound quality under all conditions? Hmmm, maybe I need to stop playing warped records because my VTF is all over the place.

    M~
     
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  12. rebellovw

    rebellovw Forum Resident

    Location:
    hell
    And dogs can't look up.
     
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  13. Kostas

    Kostas Forum Resident

    Location:
    Athens,GR.
    Respectfully disagree too. If you didn't like what you heard would you be able to distinguish what you didn't like at the dealer? His room...the speakers...the amp-preamp...turntable...cartridge? Or even the arm-cartridge setup?
     
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  14. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    Thanks for all the great suggestions, there's so many fine decks in this price range that it's overwhelming! Forgot about the Michell Gyro SE that's a cool looking deck that I have no experience with at all, as well as the Acoustic Signature WOW.

    If I went with the VPI Super Prime Scout, I would certainly get it with the unipivot arm that comes with it in the Upscale Audio deal.

    Though I doubt I would do any tweaks/mods to the RP6 (i.e. groovetracer, etc.) as I just don't want to sink any more money into it if I'm going to get rid of it and go with another company's product. But I do like the idea of trying to upgrade my cart first … it's just that the deal at Upscale Audio is hard to beat as you get the Kiseki Blue for only $1500.00 (when purchased with the table) compared to buying just the cart outright at $2099.00. Is a $2099.00 cart going to outclass a $1500.00 RP6 turntable? Is it a good match for the RP6 tonearm? Then when going outside of Rega you need to mess with shims as well … if using a shim does the dust cover still close?

    Finally has anybody had the chance to compare a Dynavector 20x2 to a Kiseki Blue (or any Kiseki in that range)?
     
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  15. Kostas

    Kostas Forum Resident

    Location:
    Athens,GR.
    It's not about the cost, it's the ability of the arm to drive correctly a cartridge. For example, many MK II users have bought their decks for peanuts and they use expensive MC cartridges. There are articles online about arm - cartridge matching, have a look or ask a knowledgeable dealer.
     
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  16. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    It is true, and I have measured it on a VPI unipivot using slight variations in static height. Even the slight difference in diametric platter position will register a difference in measured VTF.

    addressing the all-important (and often ignored) area of dynamic balance. Tone-arms should have as little inertia as possible. But too often, inaccurate placement of mass distribution results in excessive resisting forces in opposition to the phono cartridge as it attempts to follow the ups and downs of a typical record. The Phantom II, in spite of its robust appearance, has been designed with a very low moment of inertia. Majority of phono cartridges can be used with ease and optimally.

    At this point, a brief description of Balance Theory may be helpful. There are basically three types of static balance systems: neutral, stable, and unstable.

    Stable balance, normally seen in laboratory scales, occurs when the center of gravity of the moving system is placed below the pivot point. When this type of system is displaced from its preferred rest position, it will generate an immediate and opposing force attempting to return to that original position.

    Unstable balance makes no sense for tone-arm design. When the pivot point is below its required position, it will exhibit serious problems including reduced tracking force as the arm is raised.

    Neutral balance is the most desirable system for tone-arms. Here, the pivot point and the Center of Gravity of the moving system are in the same plane. When the arm is raised or lowered, there is no opposing force trying to return the arm to a rest position. The pivoting system doesn’t really know or care if the stylus is at the record surface level or a half-inch above or below it. As a result, there is no opposing force to the arm as it is traversing record deflection during play. The only downward tracking force is that of the adjustable counterweight, which remains a constant.

    Previously, all true unipivots – that is, those with a single contact point for the bearing and no secondary stablizing surfaces or bearings required the use of side weights or a significantly lowered counterweight to provide stability. In general, those arms with a secondary stabilizer point require a lowered center of gravity to provide constant contact with the stabilizer guide bearing.

    The drawback to both these conditions is that this design becomes a stable balance system, which will cause a tone-arm to have a preferred rest position, always trying to return to this point. anytime the tone-arm is raised, as in tracking warped records, it results an immediate and equally opposing force that tries to push the arm back to its rest position. The higher the warp, the more counter-force is applied. 

This unalterable law of physics will work against the cantilever, deflecting it during warps, causing the magnetic system inside the cartridge to be displaced.

    This, in turn, will certainly affect the reproduced sound, with diminished performance in all areas, including soundstage compression, loss of detail and dimensionality, not to mention record wear. This is why most tone-arms must have their tracking force measured at the record surface level; any height change during the measurement will cause an incorrect reading. 

A tone-arm with stable balance can be identified by measuring the tracking force at the record surface level and again at a raised position above the record. If the tracking force increases at the higher position, the arm has stable balance. Bob Graham’s own previous designs – the best he could make at that time – also had this limitation due to the use of side weights to provide lateral stability.

    Other unipivots with low-slung counterweights will all exhibit this force; the lower the weight, the more counter-force is applied. Although this technique is often promoted as a “high-stability” design, it does so at the expense of consistent tracking force and linear cartridge performance. . It actually results in varying tracking forces during play when traversing even small warps, accompanied by non-linear cartridge operation, and increased record wear.


    From: Graham Engineering | SORAsound

    Also make sure the one you're considering reads the VTF (vertical tracking force) close to the platter surface. Ideally it should approximate record height when no record is on the platter.

    Why is that important? Tonearms come in three three balance flavors: "stable" "neutral" and "negative". A "stable balance" arm is one where the center of gravity of the moving system is located below the pivot point. That's true with most unipivot arms, where the lower center of gravity aids stability. A "negative balance" tonearm is one where the center of gravity is above the pivot point, and a "neutral balance" arm is one in which the center of gravity is in line with the pivot point.

    If your tonearm is "stable balanced," the further from the record surface you measure tracking force, the less accurate will be your result. That's because a "stable balanced" arm wants to return to its resting position on the record surface. The further up from the record surface you measure the tracking force the greater will be the measured force because the arm wants to return to its resting point on the record surface.

    In practical terms that means if you measure 2 grams well above the record surface, the tracking force will be lower and perhaps too low at the record surface. That is one reason the simple Shure "teeter-totter" device is not accurate with "stable balanced" arms.

    A "negative balanced" arm means the higher up you measure VTF the lower will be the tracking force at the record surface. A "neutral balanced" arm doesn't care where you measure VTF. It will remain the same high or low.

    If you have a unipivot arm like a VPI, Kuzma Stogi S, or pre "Magneglide™" Graham arms, it will be "stable balanced". Kuzma's 4 Point is negative balanced. Most gimbaled arms close to neutral balance. Graham's Phantom Supreme is neutral balanced. Each of these balance conditions produces different results under dynamic conditions such as when encountering a warp, but that's best discussed in a tonearm review.

    For now let's just say measuring close to the record surface is a good idea regardless of your particular arm's balance. You can find out which your arm is by measuring VTF at the record surface and a few inches above. If the arm is neutral balance, you'll get the same result.


    Read more at Audio Additives Digital Stylus Force Gauge

    Most gimbal arms are neutral balance, which is easily verifiable with a digital VTF gauge. My point was only that both designs have theoretical drawbacks - greater friction or "chatter" in gimbal bearings - subprime stability in most unupivots. Good designs can mitigate either, hence the reason some of the most expensive arms are still gimballed.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  17. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    Yes, but to be fair, the Technics SL1200 MkII isn't really a cheap 'table... bought new back in the '70s, and adjusted for inflation, it's more like a $1200-1400 'table in today's dollars.

    That's the quality level, the fact that you can get it used for cheap nowadays ('cuz they're durable and millions were made) is gravy.

    Too true. And here's a nice online tool that might help with cart-arm matching:

    Cartridge Resonance Evaluator - Vinyl Engine

    .
     
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  18. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    As with many audiophile topics, depends on who you talk to. :sigh:

    Some folks earnestly believe that the cart is far more important than the turntable and tonearm, while others are sure that the 'table matters most, then the arm, then the cart.

    I'm in the latter camp, but I do have some personal experience to back it up, considering I ran a Linn Sondek LP12 for years with a $20 Grado cart... and it sounded really good. I eventually went to a $200 Grado cart (about $500 in today's dollars), and sure, it was a significant bump up sonically, but nothing like what the 'table upgrade did... that was the night-and-day difference-maker. :agree:

    That said, that Kiseki cart is by all accounts pretty killer. Is it a good match for your current arm? Check out the Cartridge Resonance Evaluator in my post above, and plug in the effective mass for your Rega's arm. It'll cough up a compatibility chart that you can use once you also look up the Kiseki's weight and compliance. :thumbsup:

    (ps- Japanese carts like the Kiseki often have their compliance measured at a different frequency than standard, though... which means you actually have to use double their listed compliance figure. Odd, I know. :( )
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  19. loudinny

    loudinny Forum Resident

    Essentially the long version of what I previously stated above, both gimbals and unipivots have their drawbacks. As far as fluctuations in VTF.... carts have a TF range and I take that into account when setting up my table. I experience zero tracking anomalies with my VPI unipivot, even with slightly warped LPs (anything w/ bad warps gets jettisoned anyway). No distortion, no tracking errors etc.... This is much to do about nothing.

    Enjoy the music!
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
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  20. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    PPS- Actually, you can probably scratch that here. I keep forgetting that Kiseki is more like a Dutch company with a Japanese name (and suppliers). Their compliance figures are probably standard, no need to double. Though if someone reading knows better, please do chime in.

    Upshot is, a medium-mass tonearm should be fine, and is in fact what Kiseki recommends for use with its similar compliance and weight Purpleheart cart.
    .
     
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  21. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    Lot of smoke for a" point". But it's really a rabbit hole. It's all in how the engineer or designer implements or executes the design. VPI has both, if I remember correctly and the reason why is (posted on the forum) was to give the customer a choice and also some found the uni pivot to be challenging to use. But whatever makes a person happy, doesn't bother me.

    M~
     
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  22. macster

    macster Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca. USA
    If he can't get to work properly in his system, it doesn't bode well for you.

    M~
     
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  23. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    As well as azimuth and skating forces. Quality gimbal arms have some obvious advantages here.
    -Bill
     
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  24. Dhreview16

    Dhreview16 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London UK
    I agree with those suggesting you try to hear the RP6 with an Ania (or Dynavector) cartridge before you get rid of it. Or maybe the new P8/Apheta just to see what you think. I recently picked up a dealer ex-demo RP8/Apheta for a good price just before the new model hit the stores, and am really enjoying it..very musical. I like having both the full frame and skeletal options too, which the old model has.
     
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