REM - Green: Why you should never listen to sell out bias.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Eleventh Earl of Mar, Oct 22, 2017.

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  1. Eleventh Earl of Mar

    Eleventh Earl of Mar Somehow got them all this far. Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    I've been listening to R.E.M a lot lately and Green has always been labeled the album where they started to fall off a bit. I don't know why, because if anything Document was the first in this vein and Green brings back more of the acoustic stuff that makes the band really shine. And the dumb songs are better too. Stand reminds me of the best bits of They Might Be Giants and lyrically things are really good.. sell out my ass. This is classic R.E.M and one of my favorites for the time being :) record label changing shouldn't decide a band's direction anyway.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  2. InStepWithTheStars

    InStepWithTheStars It's a miracle, let it alter you

    Location:
    North Carolina
    I never thought of Green as a sellout, I just never thought it was very good. Basically a more confident and professionally mixed version of the same sound they always had. To me they didn't have the tunes to back it up on this one, though. I really like most of Automatic, for the record.

    I'm not sure what's "sellout" about it though. Polished pop like "Stand"? Isn't that the same thing they did with "Fall On Me"? Sounds to me like natural progression, into a more overtly polished pop band than a murky college whatever-the-hell.
     
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  3. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Likes to sing along but he knows not what it means

    Location:
    New York
    In 2017, over 35 years after the band begun, I think it's finally time for the "R.E.M. sold out" fans of the band to maybe try to understand that these 4 incredible musicians can and did just about whatever they wanted and they did not morph into 4 executives who did not know how to write or play.

    It's the same 4 guys whatever label. There's a negative vibe that IRS fans put off when they bash the last 21 years of the about 30-year history of one of the greatest bands of all-time. To turn your back on a band that touched so many hearts in this world just because of a label makes me wonder how much of a R.E.M. fan they really are.

    I think it's time for the IRS fan who rejects 20 years to ask what they love more- R.E.M. or their own artificial personal "street cred/indie cred".
     
  4. Eleventh Earl of Mar

    Eleventh Earl of Mar Somehow got them all this far. Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    I sort of compare it to what happened when I liked Genesis post Wind and Wuthering - you can't just make a cutoff for "they changed" or "sell out", the music being made might not have been to your taste but rarely is it ever bad in these cases. I only started seriously listening to REM this year and while I tried to avoid the label switching as a barrier it definitely made me go for the earlier albums more than the later ones - I really love Green and Automatic For The People. There's plenty of examples but I've seen so much of this "they sucked after X happened" to so many bands while it rarely actually means anything, particularly directly after.
     
  5. Bananas&blow

    Bananas&blow It's just that demon life has got me in its sway

    Location:
    Pacific Beach, CA
    I listened to Document for the first time in probably 15 years. I love early R.E.M. I really did not enjoy it much. About 4 of the songs stuck. The overly political lyrics stunk. I don't think they ever sold out. I think they used their fame to try to make a difference in the world via bringing awareness to many political issues. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the music going down the tubes. Life's Rich Pageant was their peak. But all their work up until then is fantastic. Green is half great half meh. I don't think they ever sold out. They changed. Automatic is very good. Then I couldn't tell you. I can't believe how disappointed I was in Document today. Pretty crappy. My tastes have changed, I used to love this record.
     
  6. Hey Vinyl Man

    Hey Vinyl Man Another bloody Yank down under...

    I loved "Stand" and got the 45 when it was first out, and didn't get around to buying Green until maybe five years later. I wasn't impressed with the album, but I still liked "Stand" and still do. Then and now, I didn't see it as a sellout (to be fair, I was less than familiar with most of their other work - I still only have one other album, Fables of the Reconstruction.)
     
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  7. Sergius Wegmuller

    Sergius Wegmuller Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wiltshire
    I recently listened to the REM catalogue up to Reveal for the first time in ages and thoroughly enjoyed everything from Murmer through Automatic. I don't think they put a foot wrong until Monster and would struggle to think of a better ten year run by anyone else.
     
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  8. Willowman

    Willowman Senior Member

    Location:
    London, UK
    It was all downhill after Murmur...
     
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  9. Eleventh Earl of Mar

    Eleventh Earl of Mar Somehow got them all this far. Thread Starter

    Location:
    New York
    No man, after Chronic Town they just blew ass.
     
  10. pathosdrama

    pathosdrama Forum Resident

    Location:
    Firenze, Italy
    The ambition of reaching more people and creating bigger albums doesn't necessarily mean to sell out. REM did everything by their rules, Green is certainly more polished and radio-friendly compared to Document. But so Document was, compared to Lifes Rich Pageant. That doesn't mean they didn't make mistakes: I've always skipped Stand and Shiny Happy People on Out of Time, never got this fixation they got for children singalongs. Also, Radio Song and that hip hop crossover thing was mistake, IMHO. But then came Automatic For the People and New Adventures in Hi-Fi, these are all but not sellout records.
     
  11. kronning

    kronning Forum Resident

    A really great band through the years, but Murmur was their best for me.
     
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  12. douglas mcclenaghan

    douglas mcclenaghan Forum Resident

    I'm a big fan of the IRS years, but Green is terrific. However, to me there was a falling off from there on, redeemed by Monster (now there's an underrated album!)
     
  13. WilliamWes

    WilliamWes Likes to sing along but he knows not what it means

    Location:
    New York
    Now I totally understand Douglas if you're saying you just don't like the songs or sound of the last 20 years of R.E.M. but I guess I mean the fans that don't like those songs for underlying reasons that more about business and politics than actual musicianship. I always try to separate the two in appreciation of music because why get so hardcore about bands selling out if it doesn't affect you personally. There sound did not instantly change to corporate commercial pop on every single song.

    So yes, I can see what you mean-and I like Monster too (and Green).
     
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  14. richierichie

    richierichie My glass is always full.

    Those people who deride `Green` are talking b@ll@cks IMHO. It`s a great album, just because a band starts to have hit singles are they selling out? I`ve been into REM since `Chronic Town` and yeah those people who knew I loved music and who were coming up to me at the time saying "bet you`ve not heard of that NEW band rem or something, I just heard them on the radio and they`re great." made me laugh.

    REM receive more flack than any other great band I know. Why I don`t know.
     
  15. kouzie

    kouzie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Batavia, IL
    Really? I thought everything pretty much ended after the Hib-Tone 7"...
     
  16. pathosdrama

    pathosdrama Forum Resident

    Location:
    Firenze, Italy
    Well, not more than U2 I guess, but yes, I'm surprised at the amount of flack they regularly get. Many years ago, I interviewed David Berman from the Silver Jews: he was absolutely adamant in bashing REM for their Warner output. I suppose many listeners felt betrayed when REM became superstars and their secret favourite band got revealed to the world. Also, I guess their latest albums hurt their legacy a bit, but that is another story.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  17. PretzelLogic

    PretzelLogic Feeling duped by MoFi? You probably deserve it.

    Location:
    London, England
    Apart from the singles, I didn’t hear Green until long after I’d heard the other albums from the Big Four (long story short, I worked forwards from Out Of Time to Accelerate, then backwards, so Chronic Town and Murmur were the last albums I heard. Chronic only a week ago.). When I got to it, I was disappointed- I still can’t tell you what ‘Hairshirt’ or ‘I Remember California’ sound like. And ‘Turn You Inside Out’ is better in that live version on the In Time second disc.

    I enjoy ‘Orange Crush’ and ‘Stand’ though, but am I missing something?
     
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  18. John Porcellino

    John Porcellino Forum Resident

    Location:
    Beloit, WI
    This is a tough one. REM was my favorite band through the IRS years, but to me there was a big drop off at Document. When you're as passionate about a band as fans of early REM were, and the band is so fantastically impressive as they were, at the time any drop in quality or misstep can seem precipitous.

    To me, my lack of interest in the WB years has nothing to do with any sense of the band "selling out" but just that the elements of the band that I loved, that drew me to them, were beginning to go missing.

    Their mystery and unpredictability began to be replaced by the sound of just another indie rock band. To me, this started to take place with Document. I actually thought Green was a bit of an improvement over that one.

    Looking back I can see that Document was better than it seemed at the time, and I mostly enjoy the record now, though there are still some cringeworthy moments on it.

    I saw the band twice on the Lifes Rich Pageant tour, and was disappointed to see that their stage show came complete with scripted banter from Stipe. To someone coming from punk and underground music, with its respect of authenticity, that kind of thing was a big turn off.

    Later REM albums were hit or miss for me, becoming more miss as time went on. Still, I cared enough about the band to at least check out each new release when it shipped. But there was just nothing really there for me anymore.

    So for me at least, my disappointment with the arc of the band's career had less to do with any notion of selling out as that the band just stopped making music I enjoyed. I love radio friendly unit shifters as much as the next guy, but REM wasn't cutting it for me anymore.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
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  19. Raf

    Raf Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    I have no idea what "sell out bias" is or what it sounds like, so I'm pretty sure I've never listened to it.
     
  20. Blank Frank

    Blank Frank King of Carrot Flowers

    Pretty much sums up my view.

    I first heard Murmur and Reckoning at around the same time, just after the latter was released, and it was love at first listen.

    After Lifes... they never made another album which worked as well for me, much as I do like Green, Document, Automatic, New Adventures (NB Fables didn't work for me either). This is more to do with my own musical tastes, rather than any ideas about supposed selling out (rent and bills come in for musicians same as they do for the rest of us).
     
  21. egebamyasi

    egebamyasi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Worcester, MA
    Maybe not a sellout but something was different. It was the first one I didn't like immediately. I have gone back with an open mind but I still only like a few songs. Stand to me is what Shiny Happy People is to others. Don't like Orange Crush either. World Leader Pretend is great. I don't worship the IRS years either. Although I liked Fables, Pageant and Document at the time I don't think they are that great now. Good songs on all of them but each album was heading further away from that classic early REM sound. Green was the next logical step I guess. I had Out Of Time and actually traded it in and I didn't like Automatic For The People when I first heard it. Out Of Time is now my favorite REM album and I think Automatic is their best. So for me its the first three (Chronic Town, Murmur, Reckoning) and Out Of Time and Automatic. I know so many people who were huge REM fans early on that won't even acknowledge the later albums so I get the frustration. Still not a fan of Green though.
     
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  22. richierichie

    richierichie My glass is always full.

    Well I was passionate about early REM as any other fan but I didn`t start thinking this album is sh!t because `ordinary Joes` started listening to them. This is what bugs me about fans who sre so precious about bands that they think that band belongs to them.
     
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  23. I don't like Green, but that's not because I think they're selling out. I just think the songs aren't that good. Out Of Time was a much better album and even Automatic For The People had "Find The River", "Man On The Moon", "Monty's Got A Raw Deal", "Try Not To Breathe".
     
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  24. 24voltsdc

    24voltsdc Forum Resident

    Location:
    Indianapolis, IN
    REM is a great, great band. One of America's best ever. I loved all their albums up through AFTP. Then it was kinda hit or miss. But, I always found something to like with all their records.
    Green was a very good record with one problem. The politics became too in your face. They lost that subtle touch and mystery they always had before. But that doesn't take away from the great songs on green. World Leader Pretend is one of their best songs. I don't see them as selling out at all.
     
  25. Chemguy

    Chemguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Western Canada
    I pretty much like them all. I even liked them when they started to get popular.

    :) ...Shiny, Happy Emoji
     
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