DCC Archive Rhino?

I see Rhino mentioned a lot. Can you give your opinion of their operation, and maybe list what you consider to be their exceptional releases?

thanks

 

I think the best releases, what I have purchased in the last 2 years... hmmh... definitely The Doors Box set (sorry Steve, the best available versions!)... Country & Western Box set... beats easily all pressings around, and the Randy Newman box.

I also like their Hot Rods Box set... the latest Ramones and Elvis Costello remasters. The WB recordings by the Everly Bros sounds also very good...

On the downside: the inferior sounding 2 CD set from the Yardbirds. The Complete Cadence Recordings of the Everly Bros. by Varése, but remastered by Rhino's engineer Dan Hersch... that's probably the worst remaster on the planet!

 

If you want to read up on Rhino, the best place to go is www.rhino.com. They're not a perfect label, but they're certainly a lot better than most in the U.S.

I know they've been around since the 80's and made their name on a whole variety of CD's ranging from Sun collections of Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, and Johnny Cash (all still in print) to some off-beat collections of novelty music. They started to get a little bit more "serious" minded, doing things like the Grammy winning Jack Kerouac box set and then they hit paydirt when they made a huge agreement with WEA (the conglomerate of Warner Bros. Records, Elektra, and Atlantic) to reissue much of their back catalog. Most of these reissues so far have come from the Atlantic back catalog, mostly the r&b and jazz material they have.

If you buy anything from them, they're usually great about customer service (i.e. my Forever Changes came scratched, but they were pretty good about exchanging it for a mint disc).

In terms of content, most of their stuff is stellar, but I always find one thing to complain about. For example, the Heavyweight Champion box set from Coltrane is amazing, but I really wish they retained the album configurations rather than go with the chronological approach (that was a conscious choice, but I still don't agree with it).

The Ray Charles Atlantic box set, the Aretha Franklin box set (as well as her albums), the Otis Redding material, all these are great.

For the most part, I think they remaster things very well, usually using the best available sources (they say they always do, but I think this is probably true 90% of the time at best). I heard mixed things about the Yardbirds set, but the "worst" experience I've had is with the Charlie Parker Yardbird Suite. I eventually got the Complete Savoy & Dial Recordings collection from WEA as well as the Confirmation collection from Verve, and in comparing the sound, the Rhino set definitely has a mixed bag in terms of sources. Their Ko-Ko is done pretty poorly, but surprisingly, their 6 cuts from the Dizzy Gillespie-Charlie Parker sextet are better than the ones on the Complete Savoy & Dial Recordings set. They use more NR, which may not jive with some people, but the music itself sounds better, particularly the drums, which makes one suspect that they used better 78's. Of course, the Rhino set isn't pitch corrected, either, but anyway, I'll stop rambling...

 

The only think I liked released by Rhino was Pat Benatar's '83 concert LD. I haven't frequented their stuff since the 80's when their mixing sounded like a jouvenile amatuer constantly playing with the knobs & filtering out all the guitar fretting & vocal cues. Thankfully, the video didn't have any of that to a noticable degree. Maybe they've matured.

 

Most Atlantic stuff would have never sounded so good if it wasn't for Rhino's involvement. Great label. True, not any label can sit in my mind as "perfect", as that's mere opinion, but more than not, a Rhino product is done thoughtfully and carefully. Rarely would I concider a Rhino issue as "inferior" - VERY rarely.

Most recent Rhino: Les McCain & Eddie Harris CD: Swiss Movement. Wish I had the LP! Great sound, and definate inprovement to the Atlanic stock copy. Great mixture of R&B and Jazz. Sounds great on the "big" system at home!

 

Yes, I have that box... beautiful made!!! This set won a Grammy for packaging a couple years ago.

 

Hmm...have I suddenly traveled into another dimension where everyone loves the mastering work of Dan Hersch and Bill Inglot?

FWIW, the Doors box (complete studio recordings) wasn't on Rhino - just Elektra. Also, keep in mind that the Rhino name gets stuck on a lot of things they had no involvement with, such as the Buffalo Springfield box - Rhino itself had little, if anything, to do with the production of that box...

 

Gary, I have the "Beg, Scream And Shout" box and I love it.

Go ahead, play in in the house. But, even Bill Inglot, in the extensive liner notes warns that the sound quality isn't always the best because of various reasons. There is MONO wherever possible. That is so the feel of the songs and the spirit in which they were first heard by listeners could be preserved. It isn't about stereo or sound quality, it's about the FEELING!

Luke, you have just been hanging around the stereo fanatics at BSN too long. Now, I am not criticizing them here, so don't any of you BSN'rs misinterpret the word "fanatics".

 

It goes beyond mono and stereo (which, Inglot has *****ed* up many a time) - the mastering is simply not that good often times. Often on the harsh side.

Then there's obviously the mono/stereo issue. What's the point of Respect or Good Lovin' in mono?

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Luke Pacholski ]

 

Hmm...have I suddenly traveled into another dimension where everyone loves the mastering work of Dan Hersch and Bill Inglot?

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Yes, Mr. Luke you have. Since most people we know think Rhino's engineering is very, very thin and bright sounding, my guess is that some people here actually like that sound. If they do though, what are they doing posting at the DCC forum? Never has been a DCC disc or LP that has that etched bass-shy Rhino sound (thank goodness).

Rhino does have great notes and packaging, though.

 

"What's the point of 'Respect' in mono"? There's nothing wrong with the mono mix, man. The stereo version is good, too, but the mono mix is still a damn good mix. Considering the current state of, say, the early Beatles records, I'm glad to have both mixes of "Respect."

As for Rhino's engineering being thin and bright sounding, I can actually see that on some releases, but for the most part, I still think they improve on earlier CD releases, particularly the Atlantic jazz albums. The new version of "My Aim Is True" seems a bit on the bright side to me, but I still like it more than the Ryko.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Camarillo ]

 

I didn't say there's anything wrong the with mono Respect, but all other things being equal (and in this case, they seem to be), I don't know why they wouldn't use the stereo over the mono.

Grant, don't even think of saying "but, the mono has this that's not in the stereo", because it doesn't...

 

I haven't heard Rhino's MAIT but the new Spike definitely leans a wee bit too far to the bright side. I guess, what can you really do to remaster a digital tape, other than futz with the EQ? I can't put my finger on it, but something about Dan Hersch's work doesn't sound "right" to me. The Band remasters, the 70s Beach Boys stuff, the recent Gram Parsons anthology, they all have that weird Hersch sound. It's not prominent enough to sound "bad" (like the work of Mew, Furmanek, or Astley) but something sounds "not right" to me. I lack the ears (or maybe the vocabulary) to pinpoint what it is.

 

The same thing you do for an analog tape!

Yeah, I have to wonder why people think that if something is recorded or mixed digitally, remixing or remastering won't help. Engineers make the same stupid decisions in digital that they do in analog!

 

Did MoFi ever remaster any digital recordings?

I know some have asked DCC if they could reissue their version of Pet Sounds with the new stereo remix, and Steve's response was that he wouldn't because (among other reasons) it would just be a digital clone.

Stopping short of going back to original tapes and redoing the remix, could someone really improve a digital tape of the stereo mix that much? I thought not from Steve's response, but from Luke's post, I guess one could.

P.S. I actually got the Gram Parsons anthology. It's a great retrospective, but I have to admit, it didn't really improve much on some of the other Gram discs I've got. Still great music, though.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Camarillo ]

 

I think that Rhino puts quite a bit of thought into compiling and packaging their material. Their sound quality is very hit and miss though.

I have had (mostly) good luck with their releases.

I like the Randy Newman box set, the Bread 2 disc set, and the Deep Purple 4 disc set.

I had a Roy Orbison single disc that sounded horrible. Then I compared it to Steve's Orbison disc... I think that it was the biggest improvement I have ever heard. Tons of hiss disappears and everything sounds REAL! Thanks Steve.

The Cars 2 CD set is a nice compilation, but the sound is a little harsh. Don't compare it to Steve's Cars gold CDs, and you will probably like it just fine.

Rhino at least has to be praised for putting out TONS of great music that would have otherwise never been released on CD.

Tony

 

Well, "remaster" is stretching it a bit, but yeah - Live At Leeds and Who's Next. Both taken from digital tapes given to them by The Who.

</STRONG>
Eh...I *believe* the reasoning was because it was a remix, not because of the digital nature of the master.

Well, if you think about it, why not? A mixdown tape is a mixdown tape, be it analog or digital. The process of mastering isn't really changed...

Think about this: many remasters today (I'm thinking of the Traffic CDs) are first transferred to digital, *then* mastered from that digital tape, in the digital domain. The mastering isn't done from that original analog tape, it's done from the (already) digital transfer.

NO, I'm *NOT* saying that's they way things should be remastered. I'm just saying that's what happens. If Steve were to master the stereo mix of Pet Sounds, my guess is he would simply play back the digital master in analog, using the best D/A converters he could find, do his mastering, then make the digital master. Of course, that's assuming the master itself is digital (for some reason I'm thinking the stereo mix is actually a 1/2" 30IPS analog tape, although I could be wrong - or that could just be a backup).

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Luke Pacholski ]

 

Luke, have you even HEARD the B,S&S box? Also, there is always a good point in releasing the MONO mixes. The sound is more often than not, POWERFUL! The drums are louder and there is an immediacy in the overall feel. The stereo is usually limp, at best. "Repect" in mono sounds crisp.

I have agreed with you in the psat that "Good Lovin'" does sound better in stereo. I like the ping-ponging vocals.

 

Well, I thought about it, and it DOES! The mix is the same but the sonics aren't.

So There!



It's not about the technology, Luke, it's about the down-home, gritty, greasy SOULFUL FEEL of the music!

 

Luke, that was a big reason, too (heck, it's old news that Steve doesn't appreciate remixes too much), but I'm pretty sure he mentioned something about it being digital clone had it been done. I'll see if I can find my print out of the old post and repost it here.

 

The only difference I can hear between the two is the mono has a slightly punchier EQ, which most likely could be heard in the stereo if it were mastered differently. A bit of compression, perhaps.

What's wrong with the FEEL of the stereo, anyway? Just as some people only like stereo because it's stereo, you often seem to prefer mono simply because it's mono...

 

Not true. Unlike you, I do hear significant differences. And, I disagree with you. You cannot reproduce the same sound as the mono in stereo. And, in the case of "Respect", it's not the compression.

Too many stereo mixes just doesn't have that dry, in your face sound.

Just what DO you listen to music on?

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Grant T. ]

 

Well, I ordered the America CD today, and last week it was the Rascals. I know the Rascals was recommended here, and hopefully America is good too.

They have a lot of War mixes and individual albums as well. Any comments? I used to really be into War.

OT: I just pulled out my James Taylor and Guess Who greatest Hits and they both royally suck. I absolutely need that music. Can someone point me in the right direction? And what about a Chicago's Greatest hits?

tia

 

Hi Tia,
The best sounding James Taylor that I've heard so far is the Sony Mastersound JT album (really very good for a non-Hoffman cd). From what I understand from Steve he says that all the Guess Who's master tapes are trashed so what you get is all there is. I haven't heard the 20 bit remastered War yet so I can't help you there. I would imagine that the best sound for the Guess Who is probably vinyl.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Dave ]