DCC Archive Rhino?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by pigmode, Oct 11, 2001.

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  1. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Really? The American Woman remaster sounds quite good, actually. Perhaps a tad rich sounding and slightly congested, but all in all pretty decent. Nice recordings...
     
  2. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialistâ„¢

    Location:
    B.C.
    Luke,
    Really. I asked Steve about doing The Guess Who and he said that the masters were no good to him due to improper storage. ;)
     
  3. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    The War CD's sound very good but feature Bill Inglot's infamous spiked treble. I have a Gold CD of their original 1976 greatest hits album on Avenue records distributed by Navarre. Other titles in their catalog are also part of the gold series and sound very good, with none of that spiked treble.

    I have not seen these CD's since I bought mine several years ago.
     
  4. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Something tells me that Rhino is probably busy working on a James Taylor Very Best of CD now.

    The best sound of Chicago's hits, to my ears, are on the box set, "Group Portrait" by Legacy.
    Some people don't like the heavy bass but I do. It's probably the only thing that Peter Cetera did really well besides sing.
     
  5. pigmode

    pigmode Active Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    HNL
    Peter Cetera can sing? Just kidding.
     
  6. Doug Hess Jr.

    Doug Hess Jr. Senior Member

    Location:
    Belpre, Ohio
    I like RHINO for "what" they release, but "how" they release it and "how" it sounds is my problem. And the biggest problem in my opinion is printed on the label: Sound Produced by: Bill Inglot
    I don't want my sound produced by anyone. The original tapes were already produced. What I want is for Bill to master the already produced sound to a CD so it sounds right. I don't need him (or anyone) second guessing the original producers and brightening or dulling down the sound. Sure, those CD's sound awesome on otherwise mediocre things like Jam Boxes and low priced stereos, but even just listening on a $100 CD player with $80 headphones I can normally tell they've been doctored. I recall an article many years ago in, believe it or not, Popular Mechanics. Inglot said he had an arsenal of aural exciters, EQ's, etc. Just put the tape on, adjust a little EQ to maybe bring the tape back a bit from age but don't Re-Produce it for us.
    Just my opinion-- and I own dozens of RHINO CD's because you can't get lots of things anywhere else. So I applaud most of their efforts, I just like them adjusted a little.
     
  7. Angel

    Angel New Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, Ca.
    Dough,

    A lot of us feel the way you do about the sound of Rhino CD's. They are "messed with" sonically. No need to do that to the music, is there?

    Problem is, we can't get the stuff from any other label. We're stuck with Rhino..
     
  8. Doug Hess Jr.

    Doug Hess Jr. Senior Member

    Location:
    Belpre, Ohio
    Angel,
    Although not nearly as drastic and for different reasons, I compare what RHINO does to what radio stations do. I hope no one is under the illusion that radio stations simply plug the CD players into the transmitter. Sorry to those who think songs sound good on the radio.
    Just read this from the ORBAN company:
    ***********
    The airwaves are crowded.
    The competition is after your listeners. Can your signal cope with the challenge?
    Could you use more punch? More sizzle? More overall loudness to grab and hold dial surfers? A cleaner, purer signal for a discriminating classical audience? Or just extended geographic reach?

    Whatever signal characteristics you require, OPTIMOD processing gives you the most powerful tools available for crafting a compelling signature sound. All OPTIMOD processors are built for decades of reliable service and are backed by Orban's unmatched worldwide service and technical support.
    ****
    That means stations take that wonderful song you love and mash it to death and crank the bass, etc. all so the sound dances on your dashboard as you drive.
     
  9. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Hey guys, I know we all admire what Steve Hoffman does and how he does it, but MOST engineers do tweak things for, say, compilations. Sometimes it IS necessary to use things like EQ, limiters, compressors, exciters because the tracks have to sit with each other. Sometimes, an album's tracks were recorded in different studios with different engineers with different gear and rooms and they are not going to come off the tape sounding the same.

    The problem I have with Bill Inglot and other Rhino engineers is that they tend to be heavy-handed, IMO. I have many Rhino CDs where there is waaay too much compression and/or EQ used where it isn't warranted. And Bill Inglot has admitted to spiking the treble as a personal preference. He seems to have backed off of that in the last couple of years. But some releases are still plauged with too much compression.

    And, I think you misunderstand the idea of sound being "produced" by someone. Even some DCC discs say that the sound is produced by Steve Hoffman. "Produces" in these cases could mean the person in charge of the sound, or the person who has the final say. If there is another engineer on the project it could be said that the sound producer is more of a consultant. The record industry plays loose and free with titles and descriptions of duties, and they change over years.
     
  10. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    And, I do think some people have it out for Bill Inglot just because he issued many CD's with MONO over the years. That is unfair.
    He has gone on record many times saying that he feels the original mono mixes should be on the market, and if he doesn't do it these unique mixes may never see the light of day again, and future generations will get a distorted view of musical history with nothing but stereo mixes that don't match what was REALLY the hit and what most people heard and bought, which is MONO singles.

    People want to change history by remixing everything to stereo or putting out stereo when the stereo is at best a remote approximation of the actual hit.

    The 45 mono single of the Doors' "Light My Fire" was the HIT, the one that went to #1 on the charts, and the one people bought in the stores. The LP version that gets played on radio now was NOT the hit. If radio had played 7+ minute songs back then I doubt it would have registered as a blip on the radar. The same goes for most singles and their LP counterparts.

    Like it or not, that's the way it was and it should not be changed just because the technology is different or that the younger generation didn't grow up with mono, radio, or whatever.
     
  11. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    One of my biggest beefs with Rhino is that they continue to issue the wrong edits of hit singles. That is also rewriting history.

    "Play That Funky Music" by Wild Cherry did NOT have a hit with the edit Rhino keeps releasing! The actual hit 45 RPM single is a totally different edit, and sadly, appears only on ONE compilation out of dozens of CDs with the wrong edits.

    Motown keeps getting the speed of "Someday, We'll Be Together" wrong. The actual mono single mix runs the same speed as the stereo mix, which is slower.

    K.C. & The Sunshine Band's "Boogie Shoes" was speeded up slightly for the single BUT it is considerably slower on the original LP, "KC & The Sunshine Band". But, Rhino used the speeded up tape for their reissue of the album.

    I can cite dozens of examples of historical revisionism.
     
  12. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Are you saying (with a straight face) that the stereo version of Respect is a "remote approximation" of the mono? How about On Broadway?
     
  13. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Considering Steve uses EQ on a regular basis (wouldn't really be "mastering" otherwise), that's not a problem (although I'm fairly certain he doesn't use limiting, compression, etc). What *is* a problem is the way in which EQ is used...
     
  14. Vivaldinization

    Vivaldinization Active Member

    Frankly, the only recent negative issue I've had with Rhino is their reissue of Forever Changes by Love...now, Love Story's version sounds excellent, but the reissue's sounds like it's had its treble/upper midrange rammed up, for no reason. Eh?

    -D
     
  15. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    First, I did not mean that in absolute terms. SOME stereo gets it close and passes with *some* people as a replacement for the mono mix, but there are differences in the
    sonics.

    On Broadway is a MUCH more obvious example of the stereo mot matching the mono mix.

    Luke, I take it you are more interested in hearing seperation than the FEEL of a somg. We have already been through this.
     
  16. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Yes, one of my points exactly.
     
  17. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    I'm not familliar with the music in question, but, yes, that could be an example of what irritates me about Mr. Inglot. Using these tools is fine, but they should not be so obvious to the listener.

    You also must consider if you are hearing the single on the CD vs. the LP mix. As you know, many single versions were EQ'ed hotter and had compression added to sound good on the radio.
     
  18. Unknown

    Unknown Guest

    compression is sometimes necessary, and I'm sure Steve used a little bit of that... maybe on the Nat King Cole or Sinatra releases. Maybe Steve can give us more infos about it...
     
  19. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    How, exactly? Other than the mono version being brighter and having *less* bottom end (and being more distorted) than the stereo, the differences are very few. Ok, the guitar fills can be heard a bit more in stereo. Wow...

    [ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Luke Pacholski ]
     
  20. Matt

    Matt New Member

    Location:
    Illinois
    Anybody here ever listen to NPR? They did a series of bits last year on the 100 greatest songs of the 20th century (as voted by their listeners), and one of the songs that made the list was "Light My Fire." They interviewed Ray Manzarek, and he talked at great length about the song (did you know his part was influenced by Coltrane's recording of "My Favorite Things"?), and one of the things he mentioned was how radio stations would actually play the Lp version, not the edited, 45 version, and then brag on the air how they were the only station in town that would play the full version of the song when EVERY station was actually playing the full version. I wasn't around in 1967, but if Ray hasn't embellished his recollections, then I would guess that the real hit version that people heard on the radio was the Lp version.

    P.S. I actually prefer the single edit. No offense to Mr. Manzarek, but I'm not that crazy about his solo on that song. The single edit just seems to me like a tighter piece of work.
     
  21. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    I prefer the 45 edit of Light My Fire as I think it is a tighter piece of work as well.
     
  22. Pat

    Pat Forum Detective

    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Just remember, if The Doors had the "clout" that The Beatles had, Light My Fire would have stayed Full-Length as "the hit". Conversely, maybe Hey Jude would have been a hit at 2:30 instead of 7:11...who really needs endless minutes of "Na,Na ,Na,Na-na-na-na anyway?! HMMMMM?
     
  23. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Well, I WAS around in 1967, and Ray might be recalling only certain stations and he might be recalling a later time period. Ray also hates the single version because it cuts out his solo. It may be clouding his memory a bit.

    Again, the single is what sold, what charted, and what MOST people herd on radio and bought in the stores.

    If radio liked long versions it is because the DJ could use the extra time to take a dump, grab something to eat, call his girlfriend, smoke a joint...
     
  24. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    History, OK? What happened, happened! It is history and you can't change the fact that there is a single version of "Light My Fire". And some people like it. Even "Hey Jude" was edited by various radio stations that would not air the full 7+ minutes. If I'm not mistaken, there was an edited version of "Hey Jude" on a Beatles compilation LP somewhere.

    Same goes for "McArther's Park" by Richard Harris. Some radio stations edited it down. I did my own edit eight years ago because I can't stand the full length.

    I also prefer the single mix of "Magic Carpet Ride".

    And, *I* was around and remember when all of these songs were released.
     
  25. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    The differences are bigger than that, Luke. Perhaps either it's time to upgrade your computer speakers or get a hearing checkup.

    ;)

    I actually prefer the stereo mix of "On Broadway" because the EQ on the mono mix is too sharp in the upper midrange and hurts my ears.
     
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