Robbie said in a dvd about the band(referring to manuel) that people had a number of songs inside them,manuel had a dozen and robbie had a hundred,when you are dry,you are,he did write those great songs,but with his pals in mind,those that make them co-composers,that depends of the politics of a given band,for example levon is credited on strawberry wine,he had the title and the riff.the rest is robbie. i think he was/is very talented,but he couldn't sing ****. without him the others put some good stuff,he without them not. ps:i bought the levon book,but it's lost in transit.could it be Robbie?
Neil Diamond has always gotten a bad rap in that film. When I saw it in the theatre, all my friends and I remembered growing up in the 60's/early 70's with all those great singles of his...we respected his place and thought he wasn't bad at all in the film. "Dry Your Eyes"...not a bad tune, really.
Based on demos and seeing film of the Beatles in action I think Lennon & McCartney were both very much in command of the artistic process. It's well-documented that members of the Stones contributed to songs that Jagger/Richards took full-credit for. Nanker Phelge had a pretty short lifespan. It's all a matter of degrees. There's usually enough truth and blame to go around when accusations of this sort are made and JRR has never come across as candid/honest when the subject is raised. The same is true of the Paul Simon/Los Lobos spat. Simon proclaims innocence, but every detail he shares backs-up Steve Berlin's account of the recording session. Simon had no song going-into the session; it was built on the Los Lobos song-in-progress and Simon took full credit. And let's face it, he was no stranger to bare-knuckle back-alley music business tactics. In that case all the words are Paul's so that's 50% and maybe he developed a countermelody for his vocals that would justify half the compositional credit. But at a minimum it should have been a 75/25% split and with a huge hit album like Graceland that would have been a couple hundred grand in Los Lobos account. It's a mean ol' world.
As I stated in the other epic Band discussion I linked to earlier in the thread, I don't buy Robbie's theory about Richard only having X amount of songs in him- I reckon it was more of a case of the booze and drugs putting out Richard Manuel's songwriting spark early on than anything else. But Robbie's theory sure sounds a hell of a lot more 'romantic', as it were, than the reality- it's quintessential Robertson romanticism, really. ...And as I also said before, I'd put Richard's songwriting ability right up there alongside -if not superior- to ol' Jaime Robbie's. As a matter of fact IIRC Richard Manuel was writing original material for The Band before Robbie was.
I don't have anything against Diamond's performance but I can't resist posting this (from Wikipedia): Reportedly, when Diamond came off stage he remarked to Dylan, "Follow that," to which Dylan responded, "What do I have to do, go on stage and fall asleep?" btw, as far as money goes, Robertson bought out the other band members with the exception of Levon. I don't think dollar figures were ever disclosed but I suspect it was a generous settlement. You don't hear of Garth bitching about money, only the one guy that didn't take the deal.
Notions of authorship are hugely complex, not just in music but in all creative mediums. I'm guessing the relationship between Levon and Robbie is much more complicated than has been communicated; Levon certainly was a prideful person, and despite his version of the story it has been suggested that the reason he didn't back up Dylan as . I'd recommend reading Mystery Train by Greil Marcus for further background on what drove the group's creative vision. JRR's solo in Who Do You Love? with Ronnie Hawkins rips a hole in the sky. His work in the Band wasn't nearly as showy, but he certainly was capable of it. I have a hard time distinguishing among levels of greatness in the group's musicianship; they were all so accomplished and distinctive. JRR's solo work has been up and down. I love Storyville and much of the first album, though.
Garth may not be bitching, but he's filed for bankrupcy something like three times now. Also, what makes you believe that it was a generous settlement? Most of the things I've read lead me to believe that the remainding members had to work very very hard to keep afloat. It's really Rick's story that bums me out the most I think. I'm a "Rick guy". I think his voice was absolutely stunning and as well as his bass playing. He also has utterly AMAZING charisma. I'm into women, but if I was forced to choose a guy...well...you know. But hearing about him playing tiny dives for chump change drives me crazy. I guess none of us know what we would do in that situation, but as it stands I can honestly say that if I was Robertson I would have done whatever it took to get the guy back on his feet. I would let my brother down like that. Sigh...what a tragedy.
If everybody wants to be enlightened about how did they really played in the last waltz,get the boot the last waltz the raw tapes,only levon manuel and rick play faultlessly,robbie is heavily overdubbed, even garth!
That's debatable. I think there's some very good songs on the first Robertson solo album but they suffer from lousy 80's overproduction and Robertson's limited singing ability. And as for the "good stuff" put out by the others, how many of the songs on the non-Robertson Band albums were written (or even cowritten) by Band members? Not many. Certainly not the best songs on any of those albums. Like I said though, to my knowledge Levon never cited any example where a Band member came up with the bulk of the words or the original melody and was not credited. I'm sure there are several examples where Band members made huge contributions to arrangement, added a line or two of lyrics, or told Robertson stories that inspired the lyrics he wrote. But I can't think of many examples in rock history where such things were accorded songwriting credit by anyone. I can't think of any in fact, aside from the example you mentioned of Eight Miles High (which was an anomaly resulting from the unique dysfunctional band politics in the Byrds). I don't think the Paul Simon analogy is apt, because that's a clear case where Los Lobos created the melody. I don't think Levon ever claimed Robertson used someone else's melody and gave no credit. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Robertson/Manuel songs are all cases where Rick had a melody but couldn't come up with any words, so Robertson wrote some for him.
Rick isn't blameless for his situation. He had a serious problem with hard drugs right up until his death, and I'm sure that contributed a great deal to his personal and financial problems.
Robbie Robertson didn't rip off anybody, I don't think. The Band's interpersonal relationships were very complex, obviously, but Robbie's songs are his.
My two cents... After reading Mr. Helms's book en several other Band-biographies it's complicated stuff! It has some similarities in the Beatles' story, but most of this history is fascinating in the Tall Tales and Lies that have been told by many involved. The Band already had a remarkable career and especially Robbie Robertson seemed to be the one who took the effort to put the music onto paper, even if the others came up with a few lines or chords during their time in Hollywood. After their two fine albums many of the others seemed to dive right into the R&R-lifestyle. The other most talented songwriter Richard Manuel all but lost his talent to drugs and booze. The times The Band REALLY shone was when they (literally) got their act together and (i.m.o.) quite a lot of their work is oaky and fine, but not brilliant. Robertson (I think) really needed the talents and the voices of the others to really shine. When the band fell apart he produced some nice stuff. His behaviour around the Last Waltz was an act of vanity, nothing more, nothing less. I really got on Levon's nerves, though!
Also, they were impressed with Neil Diamond's connection with the Brill Building. In was considered an important part of Americana, along with the other forms that The Band wanted to present. As for the queries from the OP: the S/T Robbie Robertson is pretty damn good (esp. on MFSL gold). The music is distinctive from his work from The Band, and was definitely of its time. Great assemblage of outside talent, too. That speaks for the level of respect he receives from his peers. They couldn't have just been doing it for a paycheck, as RR wasn't going to be a chart-topper in '87. That last RR album was also decent. Clapton had been wanting to something with him for years.
A lot of us weren't impressed when Levon boycotted a reunion (of sorts, Richard was already dead by then) in 1989 when the Band was inducted in the Canadian Music Hall of Fame in 1989.
I made the same point about the lack of songwriting by the members in the post-RR version of The Band on that thread linked to earlier. Agree about Robbie's debut album - Fallen Angel and Broken Arrow to mention two are great songs.
I can't edit my original post, but I'd like to redact my point #4 which was stating that I thought that Robertson had been sued. It really doesn't appear that ever happened, so I stand corrected.
I remember Levon sued about authorship of The Weight, but I never heard anything else about it. It never came up again. I tend to like Levon more than Robbie but I believe that Robbie wrote most of those songs he is credited to. It would have been nice if he was more generous about it. I am sure that the other guys helped inspire Robbie in writing those songs but I don't think Robbie did anything illegal. It is too bad that the original five members of the Band did not continue for another 30 years, but I am quite happy with what they produced in that 10 year period. I just wish they would open up the archives a little more. I am still waiting for Garth Hudson to release the 8cd box set that covers the Levon and the Hawks era from 1957-1967. I really would love to hear all of the Bands songs, especially from The Basement Tapes.
the Band had a special sound,regardless of who wrote the songs,that sound can be traced in some danko and levon recordings,even on some of the last recordings of the reunited members(jubilation). you won't find that sound on robbie's records. it's not the songs,it's the way you play them,like their version of slippin' and slidin',better than little richard! the songs were robbie's but the sound...he cannot replicate it although he was a 20% of that magic formula. did he ripped off the band? i don't really know,it's just different points of view. if it wasn't for his good songs history would have been different,think about the band puttin' the cahoots album first! they play good over uninspired songs.maybe they would have not gotten very far!
Interesting recent piece on Robertson with short interview and photos of his vintage guitars here: http://www.vintageguitar.com/11786/rockin-robbie-robertson/ They touch briefly on his stylistic change from being a wailer on guitar in the Hawks days to the more Cropper- and Mayfield-influenced approach he took with the Band. Some of my own observations: The Band had five musical geniuses in it, ranging from the classically trained mad scientist Garth Hudson, to the wonderfully self-taught drumming of Levon Helm. Add to their natural talent base, Ronnie Hawkins' Hawks probably trained more great musicians for future success than any other outfit. Aside from all the valid reasons already put forward to explain the Band's creative decline after the first three or so albums, they were already gnarled veterans by the time they reached national attention; the public missed most of their prime years, not knowing that Big Pink and The Band were arrivals of sorts rather than a starting point. You may not like Robertson's guitar style, but I take issue with anyone suggesting that he isn't a fantastic player. You don't pass the muster with Ronnie Hawkins, or rub elbows with the Nashville hot shots who played on Blonde on Blonde, or impress George Harrison and Eric Clapton without having chops, for cryin' out loud. But where Robbie diverged from his bandmates and becomes somewhat of a less sympathetic character is when he outgrows the other guys. I don't mean that as a put-down to the others, either (I generally prefer Lennon with the Beatles over solo, and the same with Sting and the Police, but each of those guys outgrew their bands, too). Robbie was the most street-smart of the bunch, and though he was a drop-out, was also the most educated. Be it from books or just learning something from anyone and everyone he ever spent time with, Robertson absorbed everything. He makes no bones about how much of his writing in the band was influenced by his visits to Arkansas and spending time with Levon's family. While the other guys were musicians through and through, probably happy just to play music, Robertson strove for more (for better or for worse, more ambition). At its best, that was channelled into songwriting. At its worst was when he was trying to be a scenester with Scorsese. He outgrew the Band, but I don't think he 'grew up' until well after he left the group.
If you haven't heard Rick Danko's first album with Eric Andersen and Jonas Fjeld (originally entitled Danko/Fjeld/Andersen and since reissued as One More Shot), you should definitely give it a listen. It might make you reconsider that - it's much closer to the classic Band sound (Garth appears on a couple of songs as well), and it's beautiful. Admittedly, strictly speaking it isn't a solo album.
and it's just annoying that there's a four CD box set of The Last Waltz but only a two CD set of Rock Of Ages I think it might have been more of a mutual appreciation society - nerdy Scorsese trying to hang out with a real rock star! and slightly off-topic: I've read, several times, that when film directors want actors to play rock stars they tell them to watch Robbie Robertson in The Last Waltz. Which is interesting because it seems pretty obvious that Robertson is, himself, giving a 'performance' of a rock star. The comparison between him and his band mates is quite extreme.
