Rogue Cronus Magnum III

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by bajaed, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. Superflam70

    Superflam70 New Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
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  2. billnunan

    billnunan Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Here is a perfect example of why and how this Forum is so great. This Forum Star diagnosed the issue from miles away. Just awesome! :cheers:
     
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  3. ratskrad

    ratskrad Forum Resident

    Location:
    Heber Utah USA
    I ordered one on 6/18 and it arrived yesterday from Rogue Audio. Got it all hooked up last night to my JBL L3's and plugged in my Music Hall 5.3 SE and my NAD C542 CD player. Just played a bunch of stuff last night both vinyl and digital. No bad sounds nor any sort of hiss only clean audio at this point. I did check the tube bias and only one tube was off and set it to the correct voltage. I changed the preamp tube to an RCA Clear top 12AU7 based on a recommend from the selling shop. I am trying to just put some hours onto the unit and am avoiding any real critical listening but last night I did crank it up and turned off the lights and put on Natalie Merchant's Live in New York City disc as it has always been to my ears one of the best for a soundstage as it is wide open and envelopes the whole space in front of me. I was not disappointed. Just listened to The Carpet Crawlers from The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway on heavy vinyl and had smile on my face. I am running my SVS PB2000 on the low end as I like more bass than the L3's can put out. This is going to be fun as I am going to be buying some speakers to try out over the next few months but I am happy with my purchase. I will post a follow up in a bit once I get more hours on the unit but don't expect anything too technical lol as I find most of that to be esoteric and pretty boring as it is my ears and my ears alone that count.
     
  4. GoldprintAudio

    GoldprintAudio Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lexington, NC
    Glad you are enjoying it! I've sold a handful of the CMIIIs so far and I have been really impressed with them.
     
  5. Seafinch

    Seafinch Preferred Patron

    Location:
    United States
    Any more thoughts on the new Phono pre in the III?
     
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  6. creativepart

    creativepart Forum Resident

    I know this is a CM3 thread - but I purchased a CM2 last week, replacing a decades old SS integrated (Musical Fidelity A5). The MF A5 was great. But this CM2 is really a step up. I'm both surprised and delighted.

    I had some NOS 12AX7s and even some NOS 12AU7s left over from my tube guitar amp days so, I changed all the pre-amp tubes within days of receiving the amp. One thing I learned, the center tube is sensitive to noise. Whatever tube you put in there needs to be low noise. In fact, Rogue is aware of that enough that they actually use an EC802S tube in that spot because it's lower noise than the EC82 tubes in the other 12AU7 locations. The EC802S is a 12AU7 tube... but a lower noise version. I replaced it with a NOS Mullard 4003 but out of the 4-tubes I had only one was quiet enough to reside in that spot without noise. The principle noise was tube rush, bad tube rush that could be heard over all sources.

    Then, based on a recommendation of the original owner, I changed the power tubes to a matched set of 4-Mullard (new Russian version made by Sensor Corp) EL-34 power tubes. It's not a HUGE day and night difference, but it's a nice warm subtle improvement. And, bass is noticeably tighter.

    The last thing I did to improve my CM2 was to change speakers. This was a long time coming, but planned out for more than a year. I replaced my B&W CM6 speakers with Harbeth P3ESR speakers. Wow, what an upgrade. Especially with the Cronus Magnum. Highly recommended pairing.

    OK, sorry for the CM2 thread high jack of a CM3 thread topic.

    If you're considering going all tube, CM2 OR CM3 I encourage you to take the step. Great amp.

    PS. The CM3 is supposed to be quieter than the CM2. But my CM2 is dead quiet. I'm not sure how you make it "more" quiet.
     
  7. Tridachnid

    Tridachnid Forum Resident

    I had my CMI upgraded to a III with the cap/resistor upgrade. I struggle to hear a difference between the triode/ultra linear. CMIII is quieter than the CMI. The volume made an audible noise when increasing with the remote on the CMI. This noise is gone on the CMIII. Have not used the phono preamp (running a Rogue Ares). Happy with the upgrade. Signal tubes are NOS Mullard CV4003 (center), Telefunken 12AX7's and RCA 12AU7's. Customer service at Rogue is top notch.

    Does anyone have the details on what the exact capacitor/resistor upgrade is? Details are vague and nothing is clearly documented.
     
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  8. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    I am not certain what if any "upgrades" are included as far as "better" caps from the MkII Magnum to the MkIII version. It doesn't look like any from that last Magnum version, rather the change is to an entirely new circuit board with changes to the circuit that improve sonics in ways that a simple parts swap cannot.

    Your situation is different though as you are going from the MkI to the MkIII, so you skipped a version and the improvements there. There were some changes made to components then, basically a few more exotic and expensive caps and resistors. They change brands and types of caps used periodically, so there may have never been one, fixed constant there, but I have seen the latest versions using Mundorf Aluminum and oil cap versions for the main coupling caps. Those are pretty expensive, and they replaced what was already a very good cap in the Mk I version, which was a film and foil poly type. All versions now bypass those main caps with polypropylene caps as well. Both the phono and headphone stages have been completely redesigned with less obvious improvements to the line and power stages. The new circuitry allowed all of that, so it isn't about a few parts as much as overall design.
    -Bill
     
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  9. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Would love to hear your impressions on the phono section if you try it.
     
  10. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    I want a switch to either add or remove it from the chain. I don't want it completely by-passed, as it would impact the resale value. I have a phono stage, a Phonomena 2+ that I'm very satisfied with. On my CM I, I can't use the phono with a MC cartridge. Yes, the CM III has MC capabilities, but again I'm pretty happy with my cartridge/stage pairing. Do I need 4 inputs? I actually do. I have a blu-ray player, a DVD-A/SACD player and DAC to my computer. So I have to have an external switch for the optical discs players. I have a phono input, that I can't use because of the phono stage. So by-passing it makes sense. It would also offer others who wouldn't use the phono stage other options.
     
  11. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    My RP5 preamp has jumpers inside to bypass the phono stage. I wish most devices with a onboard had this feature.
     
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  12. bajaed

    bajaed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Nice option to have. I actually had the phono stage on my CM1 bypassed at the factory since I wasn't going to use it.

    I figured it wouldn't hurt resale since most would rather use a better phono stage with that level of amp. That's no longer an issue with the III. I wonder how expensive a bypass option would be?
     
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  13. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Good move. The original CMI stage was not good. Noe was the headphone output. I understand they improved both in Gen2 and the phono is much better still in Gen3. Rogue certainly knows how to do a very good internal stage. The ones on their preamps are excellent.
     
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  14. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    congrats on the CMII ! loving mine for almost three years and agree with you about the preamp tube. if you order tubes from brent jesse audiotubes he will screen them for to make sure they are low noise ($5 per tube). try an amperex holland or OEM philips 12Au7 when you have a chance. transparent, warm and clean.
    kind of surprising about the new mullard EL-34. i tried some EH KT 88 and was not impressed- they sounded weak compared to the stock KT 120s which are dynamic and neutral and hard to beat.
    did you listen to the KT120s for very long? Can you please tell us more about how the EL34s sound compared to the KT120s?
     
  15. No Static

    No Static Gain Rider

    Location:
    Heart of Dixie
    Curious here as well.
     
  16. gss

    gss Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Glad you asked this question, @Benzion. However, if that is true, I’d be disappointed that neither the headphone input or the phono input are fully tube circuits. Isn’t that kind of the point of this very tubey unit?
     
  17. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Yes, but therein lies a problem. When you cram too many tube-based things into the same box, and they all run off the same power supply, it creates problems. I once had a fully tubed preamp custom-built for me by a respectable small firm here in the US. It had an integral tubed phono good enough to be TAS-recommended, and, I had the honor of having the first unit built with and internal EL-84-based headphone amp. On paper, it made me salivate. In reality, the unit was so ridiculously noisy, that I sent it back once to be worked on, which didn't help much, and eventually returned it for a refund. In retrospect, the builder apologized, siting the need for a beefier power supply and better internal isolation of components to accommodate so many tubes within the same box, and that it was impossible to achieve at the offered price point.

    Rogue must have arrived at the same conclusion, experimentally. That's why their phono and headphone amp are SS - it's easier to incorporate into a schematic of an integrated, it's quieter, puts lets strain on the power supply, and is cheaper - helping them stick to an offered price point. To a lot of people, it makes perfect sense, as long as the phono and HP amp are of decent quality, and the overall unit provides listening pleasure.

    But, for me personally, that won't do - I'm a lot more likely to live with an SS power stage, but I insist on a tubed phono and HP amp. I've since went the way of separates: a tubed pre, phono, and HP amp, with an SS power amp in the living room. Incidentally, the tubed pre was built by the same firm as the first example (I gave them a second chance and don't regret it), but this time I ordered the simplest configuration: 4 inputs selector, volume, one amp output, one tape out - that's it, and now it sounds great, no noise. For many people it just won't be practical: too many boxes, wires, space and budget constraints. But, whenever possible, I favor one component doing just one particular job, and doing it well, not to mention enjoying its own power supply while doing it.
     
  18. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    i think that originally Rogue didn't put much into the HP and phono stages as they were pretty awful. I figure they didn't expect anyone to use them except newbies that just needed a gateway to better stuff. After all, real audiophiles that care have separates. The landscape has changed though, with companies like Parasound, Peachtree, Yamaha, Moon, and many others producing truly excellent, vey full featured integrated at that $2500-$3000 price point. To their credit Rogue stepped up their game. I think they made the circuits in the RP series more portable - their preamps have always had excellent phono and headphone stages - and they have trickled over to the CM3.

    it could also be noted that many tube integrateds hav a passive preamp and as such no phono or headphone stage at all.
     
  19. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Curious, which firm? Certainly can't be Odyssey with that sort of customer service.
     
  20. Morbius

    Morbius Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brookline, MA
    Kind of gives me the feeling tubes might be a bit of a panacea.
     
  21. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Erm, could you clarify your meaning here, please?

    pan·a·ce·a
    /ˌpanəˈsēə/
    1. a solution or remedy for all difficulties or diseases.
     
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  22. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    No, no, I've never bough from Odyssey yet, although I want to. I had no complaints about the customer service, either - I would not have bought from them again otherwise. Overall, it was a learning experience, and I have no complaints. The builder is a gentleman of the highest degree, no issues with him whatsoever. This post of mine was only meant to share my experience and my understanding of why too many features should not be crammed into tubed integrated amps.
     
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  23. Superflam70

    Superflam70 New Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia
    I also struggle to hear a difference.
     
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  24. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    A lot of that depends on the amp.

    I had a CMI, which did not have a triode mode. I also have a pair of KT88 based Rogue M-150 monoblocks and a KT88 based Rogue Stereo 90 and there is a bit of a difference in the triode mode. It is a bit softer, less tight and dynamic.

    A little bit better for Jazz, vocals and acoustic instruments.

    When you get into the CM series that is KT-120 based, the KT-120 tube and the amplifier design is a bit more linear in nature than the KT88 tubes and amps, so the differences between the UL and triode modes may be less apparent.

    The type of speaker used has a lot to do with it. With some types of speakers, SS amps and glass amps sound mostly alike.

    I think the differences are more apparent with high sensitivity horn loaded speakers or similar.
     
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  25. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    :righton:
     
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