Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums (part2)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MilesSmiles, Sep 16, 2011.

  1. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    Remember, there is 2009 Pearce, for example, and 2012/2014/2016 Pearce. His masterings are all over the place. He can do good masterings, but not always.

    Some people hold Andy Pearce in the same esteem as Barry, Steve, Kevin G, Bernie, Vic Anesini, etc. I do not. :D
     
  2. MrEWhite

    MrEWhite Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    You're right! I must have gotten them mixed up. The DE Dehumanizer does sound very close to the original CD, being more bright than the HDTracks version, which after listening to it, I'm back to preferring. Sorry about that!
     
  3. Finally, a Mob Rules shootout:

    Completed shootouts: 13

    Individual test results from among 4 possible files:

    "A" chosen: 3 times (23.08%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Falling Off The Edge Of The World (1981 Mob Rules_2013 HDtracks_Warner-Rhino_The Rules of Hell_24-192 to 16-44.1) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "B" chosen: 3 times (23.08%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Falling Off The Edge Of The World (1981 Mob Rules_2010 Germany for UK_2CD_2735070_Sanctuary) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "C" chosen: 7 times (53.85%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Falling Off The Edge Of The World (1981 Mob Rules_1987 USA_3605-2_Warner) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "D" chosen: 0 times (0.00%) (file: D:\Uploads for Filehosting\Samples OK\Falling Off The Edge Of The World (1981 Mob Rules_1987 West Germany_830 777-2_Vertigo) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)


    I must say the differences between these 4 releases are much less pronounced than between the Born Again releases I tested earlier today. The difference between the 2 darker and the 2 brighter sounding Born Again masterings were rather huge - both in descriptive terms (bright vs. dark) and in evaluative terms (bad vs. good). The 4 Mob Rules masterings, in contrast, sounded all rather good to me. During the shootout, I didn't feel my preferences were definite or pronounced. Accordingly, the rather clear end result in favor of the original WB CD came as a surprise. Anyway, in this case I am satisfied. It is not like with e.g. Heaven and Hell where I prefer the Deluxe CD but at the same time find it a little to bass-heavy, let alone TE or NSD where even the best digital versions sound rather bad. Quite the opposite: with Mob Rules, even the original WG Vertigo CD, which didn't get a single vote in this shootout, doesn't sound bad. But the other 3 sound better, and the original WB is a great winner.

    I know. But the Dehumanizer Pearce remaster was part of the same mastering series as the 2009 CDs, as well as The Eternal Idol, Born Again etc. I did feel there was a pattern to those (minus, of course, the ones that weren't really Pearce's work), involving a rather natural, moderately dark and (mostly) nmoderately compressed sound. Dehumanizer doesn't seem to fit in that pattern.

    Regarding Pearce's 2012 remasters of the 1970ies Sabbath catalogue, I believe it was rnranimal who once brought up the possibility that Pearce was explicitly told to master the albums bright that time, and also master them in such a way as to make them sound more similar to each other. Which would explain why especially Vol4, which is originally (mostly) a very dark-sounding album, sounds ridiculous with the 2012 mastering. After all, Pearce works for money, I doubt he is always free to choose the sound he truly believes to be best for the album in question. Anyway, of course that's all just speculation. I don't know what happened, I am just trying - desperately sometimes - to explain the puzzling realities we're confronted with in dealing with the Sabbath catalogue. ;-)

    Maybe the tape noise successfully concealed the bad mix? ;-)

    I wish. But they had been preparing those Deluxe Editions for a rather long time, and I remember that the release of Born Again got further delayed because they were still trying to track down the multitracks. I believe that especially Tony really wanted that remix to happen. The fact that they nevertheless didn't manage to find the multitracks suggests that if they do still exist to begin with, they must be hidden very, very deeply who knows where. Anyway, hope dies last! Maybe someday those tapes will suddenly re-appear in Ian's basement under a box full of holiday slides from the mid-1980ies.:)

    No problem. Thanks for clarifying, I am glad we managed to sort that out. :) I was afraid I might have made some kind of mistake, or maybe something was wrong with my ears. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  4. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    ^^^ I'm 99% sure the Dehumzanizer DE wasn't remastered. The 1st disc of the DE matches (or is very close, can't remember) to the original Canadian Reprise I have, which I presume is the same as the origimal US disc.

    rnranimal thinks similarly to what I think: I think Pearce was told to do new remasters, but make them sound different (or "better") than the 2009's. Hence, he cranked up the brightness. Yes, and Bob Ludwig works for money too, and I have just a hair more respect for Andy Pearce than I do for brickwall Bob. :D
     
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  5. rnranimal

    rnranimal Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    It's been a while since I've compared Dehumanizer but I also found the original US CD and 2CD to be extremely similar sounding. I'm wondering if maybe the master prepared at the time was 44/16 digital and that's what has been used ever since (until HDtracks which went back to analog tapes). Then maybe either Andy decided it didn't need further work or maybe, like with Paranoid, they just decided to use a prior mastering.

    I lost a ton of respect for him after hearing the 2012 masterings (via HDtracks). I will be very wary of anything new with his name on it. I remember an interview before/around the time the 2009 CDs came out when he was talking about how all the previous CD issues were much too bright (which of course isn't true, but I was glad he recognized that it's been an issue with a number of them) and that he was looking to bring something closer to the original vinyl sound to CD. To have this same person then do the very bright 2012s is really disappointing. But you know, there was the same kind of interview where he mentioned gathering original pressings of the albums to compare with their 2012 masterings to make sure they didn't deviate too much. I sure wish I could've been sitting there in the studio to see how they could possibly think the 2012 vinyl sounded anything remotely like the originals.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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  6. MrEWhite

    MrEWhite Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    The Pearce has a higher dynamic range than the original, and sounds slightly less bright imo
     
  7. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

  8. MrEWhite

    MrEWhite Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    blacksabbathrainbow likes this.
  9. It is crazy how compressed the original 2008 Rules of Hell CD box masterings were and how dynamic their 2013 HDtracks counterparts turned out to be.
     
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  10. Finally - a Live Evil shootout! Please note that I didn't include any 1xCD release in this test, because I want to listen to this album in its entirety. Anyway, overall running times of the 4 releases I tested still differed notably, ranging from 83:29 min to 84:11 min. I haven't checked why that is the case but I am assuming that only crowd noise has been edited differently. I didn't include the 2010 Japan UICY-94476-77 SHM-2xCD because it is digitally identical to the European 2733929 Sanctuary 2xCD.

    Today I tested with headphones.

    Completed shootouts: 13

    Individual test results from among 4 possible files:

    "A" chosen: 1 time (7.69%) (file: D:\Musik (lokal)\+ Samples OK\The Sign of the Southern Cross + HaH (cont.) (1982 Live Evil_2013 HDtracks_Rhino-Warner_The Rules of Hell_24-192_84.11_DR11_EDITED+CONVERTED TO 16-44.1) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "B" chosen: 0 times (0.00%) (file: D:\Musik (lokal)\+ Samples OK\The Sign of the Southern Cross + HaH (cont.) (1982 Live Evil_1996 Japan_2CD_TECW-350189+350190_Teichiku_83.29_DR9) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "C" chosen: 0 times (0.00%) (file: D:\Musik (lokal)\+ Samples OK\The Sign of the Southern Cross + HaH (cont.) (1982 Live Evil_2010 Germany for UK_2CD_2733929_Sanctuary_84.09_DR11) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)
    "D" chosen: 12 times (92.31%) (file: D:\Musik (lokal)\+ Samples OK\The Sign of the Southern Cross + HaH (cont.) (1982 Live Evil_1987 or 1989 USA_2CD_9 23742-2_Warner_83.34_DR9) - TRACK GAIN APPLIED.wav)


    Wow, that was clear and easy! The original WB 2xCD pretty much destroys the other 3 versions, even though it is a bit compressed.

    I did a little more (non-blind) listening after the (blind) shootout, here's a few thoughts: the 1996 Japan TECW-350189 is the brightest of these, I find it horrible. (Anyway, people who love Pearce's 2012 remasters of the 1970ies Ozzy-Sabbath catalogue because they have so much "detail" might like this one too.) I agree with sathvyre that something is wrong with the 2010 Sanctuary - one channel is too low or dull or whatever, resulting in an overall unbalanced and dull sound. The HDtracks is better but a bit too bright for my taste. The HDtracks and the Sanctuary sound more dynamic (DR11) than the TECP and the original WB (DR9) though.

    There is a chance that the HDtracks would be the best if properly re-EQed. "Properly" in this case would mean something like: a tad darker than the original WB 2xCD, without adding any compression. If anyone wants to give that a try, I would be very interested in the results!

    As always, if anyone is interested in sound samples, just leave me a message.

    P.s.: After a little more listening, I feel that this is another Black Sabbath album that hasn't got an entirely satisfying digital release as of yet. The more I listen, the more I wish that the WB 2xCD were a little more dynamic. If any of the more tech-savvy people here could re-EQ the HDtracks in such a way as to make it sound darker and fuller without loosing any dynamics, that would be great.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  11. motionoftheocean

    motionoftheocean Senior Member

    Location:
    Circus Maximus
    Glad to see this thread still going after all this time!

    Has Roland done a more recent assessment of digital Sabbath?
     
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  12. Roland has been posting from time to time but doesn't really listen to digital releases anymore. He is more into vinyl-rips now.
     
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  13. S. P. Honeybunch

    S. P. Honeybunch Presidente de Kokomo, Endless Mikelovemoney

    I now prefer the WB Live Evil. I previously compared on headphones rather than speakers, which is a better way to compare.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2019
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  14. damnit

    damnit Great Cd Mastering Only Please

    Location:
    usa
    Vinyl is the way to go instead of wasting so much time with Sabbath cd's
    Althought some of them are very good!!!!!
    Get a turntable and do some vinyl rips problem solved
     
  15. I still listen to CD's quite a bit, and am still interested in good sounding CD's, I just haven't acquired any new Sabbath CD's in a long time. And for the main albums, I have some really nice vinyl rips which do sound better than the best CD's.
     
  16. damnit

    damnit Great Cd Mastering Only Please

    Location:
    usa
    Nice :)
     
  17. That's nice to hear! I took your following comment to imply that you weren't:
    Btw, have you ever checked out the Paranoid Intercord CD?
     
  18. RnRmf

    RnRmf Senior Member

    Location:
    Orlando, FL and NJ
    [The following was done on my "north" system listed in the additional comments section of my profile]

    Ok, I did a couple of hours of comparisons this evening and can definitively answer the question if the common songs on the Intercord "Greatest Hits" and Intercord "Paranoid" are the same.
    The answer is.......NO.
    The versions on the Intercord "Paranoid" are noticeably superior.

    Comparing between the 3 versions of "Greatest Hits" was interesting...

    I have the following 3 versions of "Greatest Hits":
    Intercord identical to that pictured in the quote above - 10 tracks
    Castle French pressed with extra 11th track, "After Forever"
    Nems/Dorchester USA 1987 pressing - 10 tracks

    In the pictures, below, notice that the Nems/Dorchester pressing lists 2 extra tracks on the artwork that aren't on the disc. Also note the artwork on the back removes the Castle logo but keeps the major design elements of the artwork and credits, including the Castle copyright notice. The track times, despite being listed as identical to the Castle version, are not uniformly the same. The Castle has the best front insert with 3 panels, a band picture and additional artwork elements on 2 of the panels. Intercord has the second best artwork. The Nems has only a single card front insert with the cover on one side and the compact disc marketing in 4 languages on the back.

    Comparisons between the Nems/Dorchester and the Castle make clear to me that the source is the same - but something has been done to it to degrade it.
    My guess is that the Nems/Dorchester is a copy of the Castle and either recorded to tape, then redigitized, or maybe started as a copy and then had the worst mastering engineer ever. The highs on the Nems/Dorchester are recessed and rolled off. This is a muddy sounding disc, too. It's the first Sabbath disc I ever owned and while I never thought it sounded great, it's inoffensive and I figured maybe Sabbath albums sounded sludgy like that. The track times of some songs may be different on the Nems and Castle, but the Nems is derived from the Castle, in my opinion.

    The second version of "Greatest Hits" I purchased was the Intercord version. By comparison, I thought it was better than the Nems/Dorchester. The Intercord is clearly a different source and sounds very different. Although it improves on the Nems/Dorchester, it sounds a bit reticent in the highs, too. It's got a wider and taller soundstage, decent tonality, and is an easy listen. The version of N.I.B. doesn't have the extended bass intro on the Intercord.

    The French pressed Castle for all intents and purposes is the best of the bunch, though. It sounds more vibrant and closer to the source tapes compared to the Intercord. It is more open and natural sounding. The Castle has an edge in parts but I think it's musical. It's got an even wider and taller soundstage than the Intercord, sounds more dynamic, and has better, deeper bass than the Intercord. I think most listeners would prefer the French pressed Castle version.

    Bonus Track:
    Inquiring minds might further wonder if the songs from "Paranoid" sound better on the Castle "Greatest" or the Intercord "Paranoid."
    Wonder, no more. They sound better on the Intercord "Paranoid."

    Bonus Track 2:
    I initially ripped all the discs to a usb thumb drive to play from my Bluesound Node 2i via coaxial to the Marantz SA-10 but noticed something sounded "off" when listening to the Castle files via the usb drive. It seems the French pressed Castle has pre-emphasis. If one is only listening to digital rips, one needs a solution to handle this. Otherwise one might prefer a digital rip of the Intercord. But even comparing the rips, one can ascertain the better source of the Castle disc despite it sounding unbalanced.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  19. AirJordanFan93

    AirJordanFan93 Forum Resident

    I don't own any of the Sabbath studio albums on CD just the Ultimate Collection comp from a few years back. Sabbath is one of the gaps I need to fill but don't want to spend the huge money the older discs seem to go for on the secondary market. What would be the best series to go after for around $10 to $15 per disc?
     
  20. Awesome work, thank you very much for taking the time! It is appreciated.

    This made me laugh:
    "My guess is that the Nems/Dorchester is a copy of the Castle and either recorded to tape, then redigitized, or maybe started as a copy and then had the worst mastering engineer ever."
    Yep, that sounds exactly like what Dorchester Holding aka Creative Sounds aka Patrick Meehan would do. :-D Another little piece in the big puzzle of how bad an enterprise Creative Sounds really were.

    And this is very likely true as well:
    "I initially ripped all the discs to a usb thumb drive to play from my Bluesound Node 2i via coaxial to the Marantz SA-10 but noticed something sounded "off" when listening to the Castle files via the usb drive. It seems the French pressed Castle has pre-emphasis."
    Since the 1986 Castle Sabbath albums (s/t, Paranoid, MOR, Vol4, SBS and Sabotage) all have pre-emphasis, it makes sense that this compilation would use PE as well. If anyone wants to play digital files ripped from a pre-emphasized CD on their computer, there's a nice de-emphasis filter addon for Foobar2000.

    Thanks again. Great read.
     
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  21. MC Rag

    MC Rag Forum Resident

    Many thanks for the hard work RnRmf I am going to have to get a copy of the French Castle now, to do my own comparison... and keep an eye out for the chance of picking up Paranoid & Bloody Sabbath on Intercord cheap. What did you feel where the main differences between the Intercord Greatest & Intercord Paranoid common tracks? Bass levels, clarity, soundstage, etc
     
  22. The prices of used CDs are very diverse, some of them are rather inexpensive. Anyway, you're living in Australia? CD prices as such are of course only one part of the problem, the other one is shipping costs. I just had a quick look ad amazon.com.au and ebay.com.au, and I must say the prices (including shipping costs) I saw there for Sabotage and MOR are insane. You might want to check <Discogs - Music Database and Marketplace >, there's a chance you'll get a better deal there. For the self-titled debut, MOR, Vol4, SBS and Sabotage, check out the 2009 Sanctuary releases, those would be the best-sounding copies (other than the insanely expensive SACDs) and should be relatively reasonably-priced, but again, I don't know about shipping costs. For Paranoid, the 2009 Sanctuary is bad, maybe check out the 2016 Rhino CD (which is bright-sounding, but otherwise good). If you were located in the USA, the 2016 Rhino CDs would probably be the way to go for all the 1970ies albums in your price range - I find them overly bright-sounding, but turning your amplifiers EQ controls a little doesn't cost anything, so... Anyway, I am not sure if shipping costs from the US to Australia wouldn't entirely ruin the deal. I don't know which versions are domestically sold in CD shops in Australia, maybe go there and check first and then report back here?
     

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