I am aware at the stupid shipping prices from the US to Australia but every now and then there are some people who have fairly fair shipping fees. Also doesn't help our Dollar is rather poor and is only buying.68 American cents. The shipping normally is a deal killer for me since most sellers on Discogs have such high shipping costs to Australia though as I said there are some who don't charge an arm and a leg for it. I believe that The Ultimate Collection compilation uses the same mastering as the 2016 Rhino discs and I agree that it is bright sounding but I don't find it too much of a distraction when I listen to songs from that comp. None the less I will keep my eyes open for good prices for the 2016 discs. I am sure at least a few Australian sellers on Discogs are selling them for decent prices.
There might be a bunch of Castle versions on eBay, right now. There were French, Japan(with the bonus live track), and the late 80's or early 90's repress available, recently. I had a saved search for the title and a number of them came up in the last couple of weeks. Whether they all sound the same, I don't know. Regarding the Intercord "Greatest" vs "Paranoid," the common songs fit the paradigm of compilation songs vs songs on the actual album in that the compilation songs seem to come from a mix of lesser quality sources. In general, the songs on "Paranoid" have better separation, sound less rounded off (in the sense they have wider frequency extension), better clarity, and sound richer. "Iron Man" on "Greatest" sounds kind of tinny by comparison to the version on "Paranoid." "War Pigs" on "Greatest" is a bit unusual because the vocals are noticeably brighter than on "Paranoid." If you compare the two, the "Paranoid" version vocals sounds more natural, and sound like where they should be in the mix. They aren't offensive on "Greatest" but if you compare the two you'd probably find the "Paranoid" version to sound more correct. There aren't necessarily extremes like bass/treble level differences between the two as if they were eq'd differently, with the exception of the vocals on the song "War Pigs." It's more a sense of source tapes on the comp being lesser quality than that on the album they came from. Another Bonus Track: Comparing the Intercord "Paranoid" vs the hi-res version on Qobuz, I felt the Intercord compares pretty well. The hi-res version is a bit more saturated, compressed, and is brighter, however. I think the Intercord might be a bit more natural with regard to compression and brightness whereas the hi-res version has the edge in saturation (more there, there).
Sounds very plausible that they probably used higher gen tapes for compilations than for albums proper. Good point. The Qobuz version is the 2012 remaster. My feeling is that the source tape used for the 2012 mastering was a bit better than the one used for the Intercord, and the drop-outs during Iron Man are significantly less pronounced on the 2012 remaster than on the Intercord. However, the mastering on the Intercord is clearly superior IMO, so much so that it is my favorite version despite the drop-outs. As for the Castle CDs, I don't know about the compilation, but the Castle 1991 CLC... release of Paranoid that I have sounds rather different from (and worse than) the 1986 CD.
You're right, TUC uses the same (2012) mastering as the 2016 CDs. My advice is to keep your eyes open for good prices for the 2009 discs as well (IMO they're much better, except Paranoid), especially Vol4, which sounds horrible on the 2016. Anyway, good luck!
Do you know if the Qobuz hi-res is the same as the HD Tracks version (also listed as 2014)? So although Qobuz lists it as "2014 Remaster" it's actually from 2012?
Yes, exactly. Of course we can never 100% rule out that one official download or streaming version is replaced with another; anyway, last time I checked, the Ten Year War releases, 2014 HDtracks, Qobuz, Rhino 2016 CDs, The Ultimate Collection and the 2012 Vinyl Collection all contained the same (Pearce 2012) masterings. The only exceptions are the songs Evil Woman and Wicked World on the s/t debut - some of the aforementioned releases either lack 1 of those two tracks entirely, or they use different versions. EDIT: Curiously, some online/streaming releases containing the 2012 remasters are mislabeled "2009 remaster". As you pointed out, Qobuz obviously lists them now as "2014" remaster, while some other releases yet have them properly labeled "2012 remaster". Let alone some of the articles that were promoting the Ten Year War releases in 2017 and made it sound like those were entirely new remasters. The concept of "truth" means nothing to marketing.
I thought the 2009 remasters weren't all that great or at least I feel that is an impression I have had for a long time.
You mean, an impression you got from reading on this forum? I am not sure how - if you read in this thread for a while, you'll notice that the 2009 remasters are pretty well-liked by many people here, especially people that have taken a long time to compare multiple masterings of these albums. And many of the more dedicated listeners and collectors here either don't like the 2012 remasters at all, or at least don't prefer them. But of course it largely depends on whether you prefer brighter or darker sound or something in between, and possibly also on whether you find a little (not much, just a little) compression acceptable or not. Another factor may be whether one is familiar with the sound of early LP releases of these albums or not. Since you did notice that the tracks on TUC sound rather bright (even though that doesn't bother you nearly as much as me), I feel you might like the 2009 better (not for Paranoid, TE or NSD, but for the other five 1970ies albums).
Its an impression I had prior to joining the forum. Maybe I am getting the 2009 and 2012 remasters confused. I can say I am not familiar with the sound of the original LP releases So the best bet for me would be the 2009 remasters for the S/T, Reality, Vol.4, SBS, Sabotage and the 2016 remasters for Paranoid, TE and NSD
Actually it is impossible to know without having listened to them because it depends so much on your individual hearing abilities, listening habits, taste, etc. Also, IF you actually find a good deal for the 2016 (rem. 2012) CDs, getting those and using your EQ knobs may really be the easiest and most inexpensive option anyway - depending on what you expect and want from a CD you purchase. Furthermore, I wouldn't actually recommend the 2012/2016 for TE and NSD; rather, I'd specifically NOT recommend the 2009 for those two. Here's the CDs I personally prefer for TE and NSD: TE original WB CD: Black Sabbath - Technical Ecstasy (CD, US, 1988) For Sale | Discogs NSD German Spectrum CD: Black Sabbath - Never Say Die (CD, Germany, 1993) For Sale | Discogs But of course I am a hardcore Sabbath fan and collector, then there's the question if you are seriously interested in these two albums anyway (many people including myself rate them inferior compared to the first six), and again there's no reason to expect that you share my taste or preferences. If you want this to be easy, maybe just watch out which CDs come your way and take those? (Also, are local CD shops out of the question? Maybe they're cheaper than ordering via internet?) Or, if you want to be sure you'll get something valuable, maybe listen to samples first so you can make up your own mind.
Back to the Dio era: I just listened to the some of the 2013 HDtracks "The Rules of Hell" hi-res files (from all 4 albums includede: HaH, MR, Live Evil and Dehumanizer) vs. the 2008 "Rules of Hell" CD box set. We already know that the HDtracks are very dynamic, while the CD box masterings are overcompressed (e.g. Live Evil CD DR8, HDtracks DR11). However, Masza had an interesting theory: Masza, what I hear does seem to support your theory: after apllying ReplayGain (album gain) to all files to adjust the volume level, all tracks I tested sound pretty much identical (EQ-wise etc) on the HDtracks vs. the 2008 CDs, except of course for the compression (namely the CD versions sound fatter, mightier, more massive than the HDtracks, especially at lower volumes; at the same time, the ears have much more room to breathe with the HDtracks as compared to the CDs). So yes, it seems very likely that after Hersch's main mastering procedures in hi-resolution, the tracks were additionally treated with compression for the CD release (maybe not even by Hersch himself), but (good for us!) the non-compressed originals were saved in high resolution and later used (without compression) for the HDtracks. Thanks you very much for pointing it out! For some reason, Hersch mastered Dehumanizer much darker than the original, while Hersch's HaH, MR and LE all sound brighter or have weaker bass than the original WB CDs. Also, the Live Evil and (to a lesser extent) Dehumanizer HDtracks are more dynamic-sounding than the original WB CDs, while both Hah and MR are similarly dynamic as the original WB CDs. While I am satisfied with the Mob Rules original WB CD and prefer it over the HDtracks and all other releases I have checked, the HDtracks Dehumanizer is my preferred version now (even though I find it a bit too bassy). Also, while the Live Evil original WB CD clearly won my recent shootout, I am now, after more listening, starting to feel a little tired by its compressed sound, and at the same time starting to like the HDtracks. (Not saying I prefer it over the original WB CD - it's just that I am noticing my preferences are still in motion, so to speak.) For Heaven and Hell, I still prefer the Sanctuary Deluxe, because the others all sound too bright; but at the same time, the low end on the Deluxe is rather excessive IMO.
I checked this thread and to my knowledge this issue of We Sold Our Soul... hasn't been discussed, but is anyone familiar with the German 2-disk issue of WSOSFRNR that came out circa '93 on Castle (catalog # CBC 8013)? I have the standard WB release but was interested to see what else was out there for this comp. I picked up one of those Creative Sounds 2 diskers year back but the sound on it was pretty dire, imho.
I have just posted my updated Sabbath preferences in a new thread: Linda's favorite digital versions of all Black Sabbath albums
The original WB sounds very bright and thin compared to both the 1986 Castle and the 1993 CBC 8013 Castle. The 1993 is not quite as dark-sounding as the 1986, but much closer to the 1986 Castle than to the WB. I strongly prefer the Castle CDs over the WB One flaw of both Castle releases is that they include only the outro of COTG, rather than the whole song (despite being listed as Children of the Grave). I have several other releases of WSOSORNR as well. If you like, I can send you samples, and you compare and report back here?
Thanks for the info, and the offer is much appreciated That would be awesome if you'd be willing! Would love to do a little taste test and see what happens
Looks like the WSOSFRNR Castle CD (catalog# CCSCD 249) that I had listed as 1986 is from 1990 after all: Black Sabbath - We Sold Our Soul For Rock 'N' Roll Which I guess explains why it doesn't have pre-emphasis. When I play it without de-emphasis filter, it sounds similar to the 1986 Castle album CDs with de-emphasis filter applied. According to Discogs, the earliest CD release of WSOSFRNR was by "Raw Power" (catalog# RAWCD017), apparently a sub label of Castle: Black Sabbath - We Sold Our Soul For Rock'N'Roll I don't have that one.
I have that Raw Power version and I just took a quick listen; I could be mistaken but I don't hear pre-emphasis which is surprising but maybe that was limited to the CLACD and NELCD titles. Here's some other info but. note the tracks are out of order for some reason : Analyzed Folder: /Users/rnrmf/Music/Db Rips/Black Sabbath/Black Sabbath/We Sold Our Soul for Rock 'n' Roll/We Sold Our Soul for Rock 'n' Roll_dr.txt ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Filename ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR8 -9.20 dB -25.68 dB 11 Black Sabbath - Children of the Grave.aiff DR12 -0.20 dB -14.06 dB 15 Black Sabbath - Snowblind.aiff DR11 -2.51 dB -17.36 dB 01 Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath.aiff DR12 over -13.34 dB 08 Black Sabbath - Fairies Wear Boots.aiff DR11 -1.12 dB -15.17 dB 03 Black Sabbath - Warning.aiff DR13 over -15.01 dB 05 Black Sabbath - War Pigs.aiff DR10 -5.85 dB -17.54 dB 14 Black Sabbath - Laguna Sunrise.aiff DR12 -1.30 dB -16.01 dB 13 Black Sabbath - Am I Going Insane (Radio).aiff DR10 -2.72 dB -14.81 dB 16 Black Sabbath - N.I.B..aiff DR11 -1.16 dB -15.26 dB 02 Black Sabbath - The Wizard.aiff DR12 -3.43 dB -18.35 dB 09 Black Sabbath - Changes.aiff DR10 -1.43 dB -13.82 dB 07 Black Sabbath - Tomorrow's Dream.aiff DR12 -0.17 dB -13.57 dB 10 Black Sabbath - Sweet Leaf.aiff DR11 over -13.21 dB 12 Black Sabbath - Sabbath Bloody Sabbath.aiff DR13 -2.71 dB -17.21 dB 06 Black Sabbath - Iron Man.aiff DR11 -1.41 dB -14.29 dB 04 Black Sabbath - Paranoid.aiff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of Files: 16 Official DR Value: DR11
Great! I've don't have the 2cd version and have always wondered how it might differ from the earlier versions.
Check out your conversations, you've got a message. ;-) OK, here's the values for the 1990 France CCSCD 249 Castle 1xCD: foobar2000 1.5 beta 21 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2019-12-12 16:28:46 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: Black Sabbath / We Sold Our Soul For Rock'N'Roll (France CCSCD 249) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR11 -2.51 dB -17.36 dB 6:22 01-Black Sabbath DR12 -1.16 dB -15.26 dB 4:24 02-The Wizard DR11 -1.12 dB -15.17 dB 3:34 03-Warning DR11 -1.41 dB -14.29 dB 2:53 04-Paranoid DR13 0.00 dB -15.01 dB 7:58 05-War Pigs DR13 -2.71 dB -17.21 dB 5:59 06-Iron Man DR10 -1.43 dB -13.82 dB 3:13 07-Tomorrow's Dream DR12 0.00 dB -13.34 dB 6:17 08-Fairies Wear Boots DR12 -3.43 dB -18.35 dB 4:46 09-Changes DR12 -0.17 dB -13.57 dB 5:08 10-Sweet Leaf DR8 -9.20 dB -25.68 dB 0:50 11-Children Of The Grave DR11 0.00 dB -13.21 dB 5:48 12-Sabbath Bloody Sabbath DR12 -1.30 dB -16.01 dB 4:22 13-Am I Going Insane (Radio) DR10 -5.85 dB -17.54 dB 2:56 14-Laguana Sunrise DR12 -0.20 dB -14.06 dB 5:31 15-Snowblind DR10 -2.72 dB -14.81 dB 6:05 16-N. I. B. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 16 Official DR value: DR11 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 807 kbps Codec: FLAC ================================================================================ If I haven't overlooked anything, all the peak and RMS numbers are identical. The only difference I can see is the dynamic range values for The Wizard: DR11 vs. DR12. I am pretty sure that's just because we use different software. So it looks like the 1990 CD is just a copy of the 1986 CD. Now here's the values for the 1993 Germany CBC 8013 Castle 2xCD: foobar2000 1.5 beta 21 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2019-12-12 16:30:49 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: Black Sabbath / We Sold Our Soul For Rock 'N' Roll -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR11 -1.75 dB -15.80 dB 6:22 01-Black Sabbath DR11 -2.31 dB -15.49 dB 4:24 02-The Wizard DR11 -2.37 dB -15.57 dB 3:33 03-Warning DR12 -1.79 dB -15.31 dB 2:50 04-Paranoid DR12 -0.87 dB -15.50 dB 7:56 05-War Pigs DR13 -2.81 dB -17.90 dB 5:56 06-Iron Man DR10 -2.86 dB -15.10 dB 3:09 07-Tomorrow's Dreams DR11 -1.18 dB -13.58 dB 6:14 08-Fairies Wear Boots -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 8 Official DR value: DR11 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 837 kbps Codec: FLAC ================================================================================ foobar2000 1.5 beta 21 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2019-12-12 16:31:27 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: Black Sabbath / We Sold Our Soul For Rock 'N' Roll -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR11 -0.60 dB -14.57 dB 4:45 01-Changes DR12 -0.65 dB -14.03 dB 5:04 02-Sweet Leaf DR8 -3.94 dB -20.08 dB 0:46 03-Children Of The Grave DR10 -1.04 dB -13.39 dB 5:45 04-Sabbath Bloody Sabbath DR10 -2.47 dB -14.73 dB 2:53 05-Laguna Sunrise DR11 -1.96 dB -16.71 dB 5:29 06-Snowblind DR10 -2.39 dB -14.04 dB 6:05 07-N.I.B. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 7 Official DR value: DR10 Samplerate: 44100 Hz Channels: 2 Bits per sample: 16 Bitrate: 859 kbps Codec: FLAC ================================================================================ Check out your conversations, I have sent you samples so you can continue investigate yourself. Please report back your results here.
Per my post above, #1717, I confirmed that the Raw Power/Castle version of WSOSFRNR does NOT have pre-emphasis.
I can confirm that too. The 1986 CD samples are digitally identical to the 1990 CD; I've played both without applying the DE filter to them, and they sound similar to the 1986 Castle album releases with DE applied, and very unlike the 1986 Castle album releases without DE applied. It is interesting that the 1986 Castle album releases have PE but the 1986 Raw Power WSOSFRNR hasn't. Anyway, maybe the albums had been issued earlier in the year and WSOSFRNR came out later, when Castle had already dropped PE?
That's a helpful graph. I like the Pearce 2010 over the Ray Staff 2004 and original Vertigo CD. The vocals sound so good on the 2010. Cymbals are a little more bright on the 2010, yes, but overall a better sounding disc. Ray Staff sounds too bassy and rolled off. Almost sounds like a disc with NR even if it actually doesn't.
Ok, the 2004 is the 1996. Interesting ... I'll compare again someday. I do have a "thing" against brightness, so that might trump everything else for me, but I can at least try to compare with your thoughts in mind.
To these ears, the original WG Vertigo sounds MUCH brighter (cymbals and everything) than both the 1996 Castle and the 2010 Sanctuary. The latter is my favorite. Actually I am surprised how similar the Castle and the Sanctuary sound, the most significant difference between them is the added compression on the Castle. Are the cymbals really brighter on the Sanctuary than on on the Castle? If so, I didn't notice.
