Lot of very good choices here. The only ones I dare claim are in urgent need of an upgrade are the track Wicked World (2014 HDtracks, 2016 Rhino CD and 2016/2017 The Ultimate Collection are all way better than any Creative Sounds release of that song) and Sabotage side A (original WB CD or, if that's too bright for your taste, 2009 Sanctuary CD). IMO, obviously. What's your favorite mastering of Vol. 4?
I also have the 2009's for V4, SBS, and Sabotage. I will have to dig out the 2016 S/T to do a Wicked World shoot out since I think that was the only 2016 CD I kept. For Sabotage the tape damage doesn't really bother me that much, but I kept the Creative Sounds CD just incase it ever started to. Guess I will have to keep an eye out for the WB at the local shops around town. LOL, good catch on V4. Updated list below: S/T - 1986 Castle/Creative Sounds for Wicked World Paranoid - 1986 Castle MoR - 2009 V4 - 1986 Castle SBS - 1986 Castle Sabotage - 1986 Castle/Creative Sounds (Damaged Tracks) TE - WB NSD - Spectrum H&H - 2010 MR - WB Live Evil - WB Born Again - 2011 (But, I prefer the unmixed version over any official release) LaL - 1996 Castle PS: Can't wait for the TE Deluxe Box. I am very excited to hear the two Steven Wilson discs!
What does the West German Sabotage Vertigo CD sound like? I don't remember reading anything about that CD in the thread, but it has been a long time since I read through all of the pages.
I am looking forward to your comments on those. I don't remember but I didn't like it or I would have included it in more recent comparisons and discussions. It probably sounds smiley-faced: I wouldn't recommend the WG Vertigo CD of any 1970ies Sabbath album other than TE. The latter is smiley-faced as well but other contenders for the "least bad" mastering of that album have serious flaws too. Luckily, the situation is better with Sabotage where we have the excellent WB, 2009 Sanctuary and 1986 Castle side B.
Looking at your list of preferences, I would say don't waste your time with the Vertigo Sabotage. You're better off hunting down the WB in case you might like to see how you like it for side 1. For side 2, you're set with your old Castle.
I figured as much since I have the Vertigo NSD which I didn’t really like compared to the Spectrum or even the WB. I guess that is the problem with being on a forum like this because you are always searching for something that could be possibly better, but most of the time it turns out you already have it. Definitely going to keep an eye out for the WB Sabotage though. I appreciate everyone’s replies.
I hear you. One thing I have learnt over the years is that when a specific Sabbath mastering has never been recommended by anyone here, or at least not by any one of the people whose ears and evaluations I trust, then it's really not worth bothering with. For Sabotage, there are really only 2.5 serious contenders. All others range from so-so to awful.
There is only one Vol. 4 SHM-SACD: Black Sabbath – Vol 4 (2012, SHM-SACD, SACD) "SHM" is not helpful as an abbreviation because there are SHM-SACDs and SHM-CDs. Only the material is the same. And in case of Sabbath, the masterings are completely different.
Price for the SACD is insane, of course. The Andy Pearce 2009 remaster (Sanctuary/BMG) is a great-sounding and very reasonably priced option: Black Sabbath – Vol 4 (2009, Digipak, CD)
Collecting Sabbath CD's has to be one of the most fun things to do! I have the UK Spiral Vertigos on vinyl of the first 4 of course. Great to see the "Roland" threads are still around is @rjstauber here also?
If you mean the 80s/90s US Warner SR white shell cassette, then yes I concur. It still sounds great when I pull out the walkman. Seriously. A shame Warners didn't do a CD release at some point. I have not heard an original North American version on vinyl. I'm sure that Id like it if it's anything like the tape.
I lost track of how many times I checked this thread an oh my, this has been going on for ages! Since we're talking masters here, I thought I'd add my two cents - please let me know if this has been done before: I happened to love the Gillan-front version of Sabbath. Not exactly for Born Again, which I really think should have better songs than it does, but for the way Gillan handles the classics. When the BA deluxe was out, I went straight for the live tracks, but the sound quality was not exactly great. So last week I had some free time and decided to remix - not remaster, remix - this famous Worcester radio broadcast bootleg. Here's the final result, in case there are more 1983-Sabbath lovers out there
Unfortunately, I can't watch it. But I'm really interested to know how you were able to remix it. How come you got access to the multitrack tapes? Are these available somewhere, or are you in a position where they were indeed handed out to you?
Hello, my first post! Will you forgive me if I don't have time and energy to read through 120 pages of topics - which are the best sounding Sabbath editions? I listen only CDs. I bought several editions and compared them through v-moda Crossfade M-100 headphones + Burson Audio Conductor Virtuoso headphone amplifier. I'm largely not satisfied and frustrated - and thus I ended up here. These are my observations/conclusions... PARANOID - I compared: #1 = Black Sabbath – The Complete 70's Replica CD Collection (2001, CD) #2 = Black Sabbath – Paranoid (2009, CD) #3 = Black Sabbath – Paranoid Super Deluxe (2016, CD) #1 = The sound is too deep, too muddy, unlistenable. #2 = It sounds different than #3, hard to say which one sounds better, both are incomparably better than release #1. #3 = It sounds different than #2, hard to say which one sounds better, both are incomparably better than release #1. MASTER OF REALITY - I compared: #1 = Black Sabbath – The Complete 70's Replica CD Collection (2001, CD) #2 = Black Sabbath – Master Of Reality (2009, CD) #3 = Black Sabbath – Master Of Reality (2007, Paper Sleeve, CD) #1 = It sounds the same as #3, only very slightly louder. Too much treble, high tones are sharp/harsh and unpleasent, especially cymbals. A lot of noise between the tracks. #2 = The sound is muffled, muddy. No noise between the tracks / at the beginning of the tracks. Not ideal, but it has more pleasant sound than the other two releases. #3 = It sounds the same as #1, only very slightly quieter. SABBATH BLOODY SABBATH - I compared: #1 = Black Sabbath – The Complete 70's Replica CD Collection (2001, CD) #2 = Black Sabbath – Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (2009, Digipak, CD) #3 = Black Sabbath – Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (2007, Paper Sleeve, CD) #1 = Identical as #3. The sound is slightly too sharp/harsh, not much. Sound drops a few times on "Spiral Architect". No noise between the tracks / at the beginning of the tracks. Bass guitar sounds much better and more defined than on release #2. #2 = Slightly muffled and muddy, especially in midrange. No sound drops on "Spiral Architect". A lot of noise between the tracks / at the beginning of the tracks. Drums sound much better (more natural) than on the other two releases. #3 = Identical as #1. SABOTAGE - I compared: #1 = Black Sabbath – The Complete 70's Replica CD Collection (2001, CD) #2 = Black Sabbath – Sabotage (2007, Paper Sleeve , CD) #3 = Black Sabbath – Sabotage Super Deluxe (2021, Super Deluxe Edition, Box Set) #1 = Identical as #2. Very similar to release #3. The sound is slightly more open, cleaner, sharper (especialy vocals/midrange) than #3. #2 = Identical as #1. #3 = The sound is slightly muffled compared to other two releases, which sound slightly better. I hope someone might find this useful. Based on the observations above, maybe someone could help me find THE BEST SOUNDING CD releases of the first 8 Sabbath albums? Thank you
Thanks for your post. I'll respond by quoting parts of a longer post I made elsewhere: [...]In this post, I'll ignore bonus CDs and bonus tracks for the most part. [...] If a release isn't mentioned here, it usually means that I don't consider it to be a serious contender. Anyway, feel free to ask, of course, if you feel that something worth mentioning is missing here. Please note the 1986 Castle CDs have pre-emphasis. [EDIT: The 2016 Rhino CDs use the exact same masterings as the 2014 HDtracks, the only exceptions being Wicked World and Evil Woman which sound different.] Black Sabbath (self-titled debut) For the main portion of this album, my favorite is the Japan SHM-SACD, second favorite is the darker-sounding 2009 Sanctuary CD. The 1986 Castle CD, the 2016 Rhino CD and the 2014 HDtracks (same mastering as the 2016 CD, except for Wicked World) are also good. Anyway, this album requires a hybrid due to the differing track lists - Evil Woman in Europe, Wicked World in America - and certain problems with both tracks. Wicked World sounds terrible on every European release that includes it as a bonus track, and Evil Woman suffers from tape damage on most or all digital post-1991 releases. For Wicked World, I currently prefer the 2014 HDtracks, but both the 2016 Rhino CD and the 2016/2017 The Ultimate Collection masterings sound great as well. Main difference I hear is that the HDtracks has guitar and bass hard-panned while the other two have some channel-bleeding. The only other real contender is the original WB CD, but it sounds a bit thin compared to the aforementioned three versions. My favorite (non-damaged) mastering for Evil Woman is included on the 1989 Japan 23PD-133 CD, with the 1991 Japan TECP-23892 CD as a very close 2nd. Paranoid My favorite is the 1986 WG Intercord CD. Its only real flaw are the drop-outs on Iron Man, but since a friend created a "fixed" version using EQed patches from the 1987 Japan 33PD-353 Vertigo CD twofer, I am fully happy with this CD. At this point, the Japan SHM-SACD is my 2nd favorite even though it sounds overly hissy. The 33PD-353 is good and dark-sounding and not hissy, but it lacks "punch" of both the Intercord and SACD IMO. The difference is most notable when you listen to the bass drum hits in the beginning of Iron Man. The 1991 Japan TECP-23893 CD seems to be a slightly brighter copy of the 33PD-353 mastering - nice, but still lacking "punch". The dark-sounding 1986 Castle CD is OK but less good IMO as the aforementioned ones and has the same drop-outs as the Intercord. The 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks (both share the same mastering) sound great in terms of tape quality but alas have been mastered way too bright. [EDIT: Even after EQing, the 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks still sounds significantly worse to me than the Intercord CD, partly because the 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks has the low end summed to mono. This album has the bass panned on several tracks, so summing the low end introduces notable impairments e.g. on Hand of Doom.] Master of Reality Japan SHM-SACD for me. This is just perfect. Last time I checked, the 2009 Sanctuary CD, the original WB CD and the 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks (both share the same mastering) all sound good too. Sometime I have to do a shootout between those for the 2nd place. Vol. 4 I am currently undecided between the Japan SHM-SACD and the darker-sounding 2009 Sanctuary CD (thanks to @Anthrax for pointing me to the 2009 CD again, with the new headphones it sounds really great). The 1986 Castle CD is 3rd. Live at Last/Past Lives/Live in the UK 1973 This live album has been compiled from two shows: Manchester 1973 and London 1973. My favorite mastering of Live at Last is the 1996 Castle CD, its main flaw being the omittance of the "Will you welcome Black Sabbath" intro at the beginning. The 1996 Castle has some compression added vs. the 1986 Castle CD, but in this case, it actually improves the recording a bit IMO by making it sound fuller and bringing Ozzy's vocals more to the front. 2nd best is the 1986 Castle (which does include said intro). 3rd is the Creative Sounds 6001 CD with "CSL-NEMS 6001" on the red-printed disc and "13S 10749 AZ" matrix. 4th is another Creative Sounds CD: 6001-2, with "CSL-NEMS 449800-2" on the black-printed disc and "PILZ CD 449800-2 [ K 30550 B ]" matrix. (Please note there are multiple versions of each Creative Sounds Sabbath release, often but not always using different masterings.) Disc 1 of Past Lives contains the exact same material that is available on Live at Last. All copies of Past Lives that I have - the 2002 US Divine CD, 2003 Japan Victor CD and 2010 German Sanctuary CD - are victims of the Loudness War (DR7 to DR8). However, disc 1 of the Japan Victor is an exception as it is obviously a copy of the 1996 Castle. Disc 2 of the Victor, however, is just as overcompressed as on the other releases. I am not too worried about that though, because Past Lives is 100% obsolete anyway. Disc 4 of the Vol. 4 2021 Super Deluxe 4xCD contains a live album called "Live in the UK 1973". It mostly includes the same material that has already been released on Live at Last and Part Lives, but replaces 3 tracks originally taken from the Manchester 1973 show with tracks from the London 1973 show (same songs though) and adds 12 minutes of instrumental music and chatter. Moreover, the recordings have been remixed. Regrettably the mix lacks bass and sounds rather bright. Soundwise, I actually prefer Live at Last. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath Japan SHM-SACD for me. Sometime I have to do another shootout for the 2nd place, comparing the 2009 Sanctuary CD, 1986 Castle CD and 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks (both share the same mastering. The 2009 Sanctuary has the stereo channels swapped. [EDIT: @rnranimal recently pointed out to me that the summed low end of the 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks is detrimental for the sound of this album, which leaves us with the 1986 Castle CD and the 2009 Sanctuary CD with the swapped stereo-channels as the only contenders left for the 2nd place.] Sabotage If you want just one CD for this album, there's only two options really: the original WB CD (which sounds crisp and fully dynamic and very close to the original vinyl) or the 2009 Sanctuary CD (which sounds darker/rolled off and a tad compressed). My current favorite is a hybrid that was originally suggested to me by @hutchguv (thanks to him!): original WB CD (side 1)/1986 Castle CD (side 2). The 1986 Castle has some tape damage on Symptom of the Universe, Megalomania and the 2nd half of Don't Start (too Late). Hole in the Sky doesn't seem damaged on the Castle but still sounds worse to me than the WB version. For side 2, however, the Castle is a very serious contender, especially because the WB sounds a tad bright for my taste (and more so on side 2 than on side 1), plus I recently noticed a drop-out on "Am I Going Insane (Radio)" on the WB CD at 0:45, when Ozzy sings "me" (in "Tell me people am I going insane"). I haven't heard that drop-out on any of the other tested CDs. [EDIT: After further listening and comparing with headphones, I currently prefer the original WB CD for both side 1+2 of Sabotage. It still sounds a bit bright to me (though not brighter than the original US+UK LPs), but other than that and one little dropout on AIGI, it's just perfect. A friend has fixed the drop-out and also edited in an EQed version of the 2014 HDtracks "Blow in a Jug". The 1986 Castle side 2 sounds really good as well, but not quite as clean and crisp. I now believe the WB uses the better source. Of all the original WB CDs for the 1970ies Sabbath catalog, Sabotage is easily the best IMO. The 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks doesn't sound as good, even after taming its brightness.] Technical Ecstasy There is no entirely satisfying digital release of this album. Originally I preferred the original WB CD, but I have since switched to the original WG Vertigo CD which IMO sounds closer to the original LP. The WB now sounds too dull to me. Some prefer the 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks (both share the same mastering), but those are is mastered too bright for my taste. [EDIT: Now I feel the WG Vertigo has the mids too recessed and sometimes also sounds unnatural in other respects. I am not happy anymore with some of the EQ choices on early LP pressings of this album either. I've come to like the 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks though it clearly needs EQing, especially in order to reduce the brightness at 20000Hz. See this post. The Steve Wilson remixes on the 2021 so-called "Super Deluxe" 4xCD sound good in many respects and offer lots of improvements but also end up being a bit loud and maybe lacking a bit of naturalness, and regrettably "It's Alright" didn't receive a remix at all. The mono fold down sounds clearly inferior to the original stereo mix and makes zero sense anyway, let alone on the same disc as the remixes.] Never Say Die! My favorite is the 1993 German Spectrum CD (although it is a tad compressed), the original WB CD is 2nd. The 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks (both share the same mastering) are mastered too bright for my taste. Like with Technical Ecstasy, there is no entirely satisfying digital release of this album. [EDIT: At this moment, my favorite is the 2016 Rhino CD/2014 HDtracks, EQ-matched to the original UK LP.] [...]
Thanks Linda, I saw that post even before I posted mine, but you mostly mention SACDs, while I don't have the ability to play SACDs
I am mostly a vinyl guy and have multiple copies of all the Sabbath/Ozzy releases. However I also like to pick up Sabbath CDS when I find them though and I have the following list, I would be interested in any comments about them from people who know these masterings, or if any of them are particularly interesting versions. Are the Castle 1996 versions listed the same as the often discussed 1986? I really enjoy the Sanctuary 2009/Andy Pearce releases and intend on finding them all eventually. Volume 4 in particular is superb and essential IMO. Also the Seventh Star Sanctuary sounds amazing on headphones. Black Sabbath - s/t - Creative Sounds Black Sabbath - s/t - Sanctuary 2009 Paranoid - Castle 1996 Master of Reality - US WB Master of Reality - Sanctuary 2009 Volume 4 - Sanctuary 2009 Sabbath Bloody Sabbath - Castle 1996 Sabotage - Castle 1986 Sabotage - Sanctuary 2004 Technical Ecstacy - Spectrum - Germany Never Say Die - Castle 1996 Heaven & Hell - US WB Mob Rules - Sanctuary 2009 Born Again - Sanctuary 2011 Seventh Star - Sanctuary 2004 Headless Cross - IRS Tyr - IRS Cross Purposes - IRS Dehumanizer - IRS 13 - Vertigo Greatest Hits - Castle
I cannot play SACDs either, I got lossless rips of these SACD>FLAC from a friend, converted them to PCM audio and burnt them to CDR. Anyway, if you read my post closely, you' ll have noticed I did give Redbook CD recommendations as well. Linda's Redbook recommendations (short version): s/t: 2009 Sanctuary + 2016 Rhino Wicked World + 1989 Japan 23PD-133 Evil Woman Paranoid: 1986 Intercord MOR: 2009 Sanctuary Vol. 4: 2009 Sanctuary SBS: 1986 Castle (if your CD player has the ability to de-emphasize pre-emphasized CDs; if you don't know if it does, look and/or ask here) Sabotage: original WB TE: 2016 Rhino (too bright), original WG Vertigo (recessed mids), original WB (dull) NSD: 2016 Rhino (too bright), 1993 German Spectrum CD (a bit compressed) Absolutely not. The 1996 were new (at the time) remasters with a lot of compression and other processing. The 1986 Castle CDs sound very different and are the only Sabbath CDs with pre-emphasis. I'll comment on the specific releases you listed and give my own recommendations for the post-1970ies albums. For my recommendations for the 1970ies albums, see my previous two posts. Please note that most or all of the 2009-2011 Sanctuary remasters have later been reissued by BMG. Black Sabbath - s/t - Creative Sounds | There are multiple Creative Sounds CD releases for each of the original Sabbath albums up to Sabotage, oftentimes with different masterings. The ones I have heard for the debut album are so-so or OK, there are clearly better options. Black Sabbath - s/t - Sanctuary 2009 | Currently my favorite Redbook for all tracks other than Evil Woman and Wicked World. Paranoid - Castle 1996 | Not absolutely terrible, but not recommended either; this mastering has several issues, possibly compression and noise-rediction, but I don't remember the details, Master of Reality - US WB | This is pretty good IMO. Master of Reality - Sanctuary 2009 | Probably the best Redbook for this album. Volume 4 - Sanctuary 2009 | My favorite Redbook for this album. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath - Castle 1996 | I didn't like this, but I don't remember why. Sabotage - Castle 1986 | Side 1 suffers from serious tape isses. Side 2 is very good. Sabotage - Sanctuary 2004 | This uses the 1996 Castle remaster. I didn't like it, but I don't remember why. Technical Ecstacy - Spectrum - Germany | One of the "least bad" digital versions of this album. Never Say Die - Castle 1996| I didn't like this, but I don't remember why. Heaven & Hell - US WB | OK/so-so. I really like both the 2010 Sanctuary CD (huge bass) and the Japan SHM-SACD. The 1986 Japan 32PD-129 CD and the 2013/2014 HDtracks (which sounds a tad bright IIRC) are also very good (make sure to pick the right HDtracks version though, see @Raf's post here). The original WG Vertigo CD isn't bad at all either. Mob Rules - Sanctuary 2009 | Best or second best. The original WB CD was my favorite for quite a while, but since @MrEWhite pointed out there is a drop-out at the very beginning of Turn up the Night (at the 2nd or 3rd hit of the hi-hat, before any other instrument kicks in), I cannot unhear that drop-out any more. The 2013/2014 HDtracks is very good as well but a bit bright IIRC (make sure to pick the right HDtracks version though, see @Raf's post here). Born Again - Sanctuary 2011 | Great. The only other excellent option on CD is the 1990 Japan CD. IIRC, the 1990 Japan CD sounds a tad darker and the 201 Sanctuary has got a little bit of compression. Last time I checked, I slightly preferred the 2011. Seventh Star - Sanctuary | This uses the 1996 Castle remaster. Surprisingly good, but not the best option IMO. For me the best, or least bad, mastering of this album is on the 2010 Sanctuary CD. 2nd place is shared by the 1996 Castle and the original 1986 West German Vertigo. EQ-wise I prefer the Castle to the WG Vertigo, but I don't like the added compression on the Castle. The 1990 Japan PHCR-2055 CD is digitally identical to the original WG Vertigo after correcting for offset; the 2013 US R2-25337 Rhino Flashback CD is digitally identical to the 1996 Castle after correcting for offset. Headless Cross - IRS | For details, see this post. I don't hear much of a difference between any of the available official CDs (haven't tested any pirate copies). The 1989 Dutch 564-24 1005 I.R.S. and the 1989 UK CDP 241005-2 I.R.S. are digitally identical after correcting for offset and, unlike other releases, don't hit 0.00 dB, so these are my go-to versions. The 1999 EU 07243 5 21299 2 8 EMI CD has a bit of compression added (not much though). Tyr - IRS | For details, see this post. Basically, if you have either the 1990 UK EIRSACD 1038 I.R.S., 1990 Japan VICP-67 Victor, 1990 Dutch 24 1070 2 I.R.S., 1990 US X2 13049 I.R.S. or the 1999 EU 07243 5 21298 2 9 EMI CD, you should be fine, since all of them contain the same mastering. It is not perfect, but dynamic-sounding (DR12). If you want to be on the safe side, the 1990 UK, Japan or Dutch CDs may be preferable over the 1990 US and 1999 EU CDs since the latter 2 were likely copied from the UK CD in a way that introduced certain additional (minor) issues, most notably a 1-sample azimuth error. But it is very unlikely that you'll actually hear the difference. The only release I have that contains a different mastering is the 2001 US 72435-30415-2-6 I.R.S. CD. Given that the only discernible difference is its added compression (DR9 vs DR12), it is hardly commendable. Dehumanizer - IRS | The very dark-sounding 2013/2014 HDtracks is my favorite (make sure to pick the right HDtracks version though, see @Raf's post here). The 2011 Sanctuary CD allegedly mastered by Pearce actually sounds very similar to the original 1992 CDs (all of which sound identical to each other). The 2019 Rhino CD uses the same mastering as the 2011 Sanctuary. Cross Purposes - IRS | I have tested the following CDs, and they all turned out to contain the same mastering: 1994 Italy 0777 7 13222 2 8 I.R.S.,1994 Dutch 0777 7 13222 2 8 I.R.S., 1994 US 07777 13222 2 8 I.R.S., 1994 Japan TOCP-8128 I.R.S. and 1994 USA DPRO-10744 I.R.S. (promo CD). 13 - Vertigo | This is a brickwalled mess (DR5). IIRC, all the multiple standard, Deluxe, Special and Super Deluxe Editions as well as the Blu-ray (which contains a mono track along with the usual stereo version) share the same mastering but I haven't closely compared all of them. Greatest Hits - Castle | I have never compared masterings for these albums
