Rolling tubes in a PrimaLuna Preamp

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by eflatminor, Jan 21, 2019.

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  1. eflatminor

    eflatminor Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Nevada
    I'm planning to try NOS tubes in my PrimaLuna Prologue preamp, which uses two 5AR4s and four 12AU7s. I figure I'll keep the Chinese-made stock tubes as backups.

    Anyone that would care to share their experience? Any thoughts on which to shortlist would be appreciated as some of these sought-after valves are not cheap!

    Sources for NOS valves/dealers you like also welcome.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I personally wouldn’t bother. The thing was voiced with Chinese tubes. Anything else will throw the voicing off.
     
  3. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    Best 12AU7 is Brimar 13D5 long plate. Next best are CBS/Hytron 5814. Both tube numbers are 12AU7.
     
  4. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    If he could find four of them it would be a miracle. I've searched for the past several weeks and can't even find one of those available!
     
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  5. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
  6. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Yeah I saw those, but was skeptical about the Pinnacle branding. I already have a Pinnacle 13D5A tube that was made in Japan, in the 70s I believe. It was the best I had until I got a NOS Brimar CV4003 from Upscale audio, which is really excellent. I might try one of those Pinnacle/Brimar tubes, knowing they are actually true Brimar made tubes. Thanks for the confirmation.
     
  7. eflatminor

    eflatminor Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Nevada
    Interesting, thanks for the feedback.

    It's true one of the reasons I am considering this is the pursuit of something that sounds better...the audiophile thing and all...but the other has to do with where I live, or so I'm told. Living just blocks from the Pacific Ocean, I occasionally have tube pins oxidize or otherwise corrode, which causes a temporary failure in the component, as though a tube has gone bad. Once I pull the offending tube and reinsert, it begins functioning normally again. I'm told this has to do with the stock tube pins not being plated like higher quality or NOS tubes, which makes them more vulnerable to the ocean air. Again, so I'm told.

    This was the original motivation to try different tubes.
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Hmm, I have lots of old tubes with funky pins. A little 000 steel wool and I'm good to go. But I don't live that close to the beach..
     
  9. If it helps you, I retubed my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium integrated recently. My pre amp section tubes, are 12au7's like yours.
    I tried several brands of reissues at first and I didn't like any of those (Gold Lion's with gold pins, Tung Sol's and EH). And I mean, they were really a step back comparing to the Chinese stock tubes I had, and I didn't like them not even as driver tubes (that's cause they say in my amp 2 are pre's and the other 4 are drivers that don't affect the sound that much. In my case, they did, not as much as the center ones, but they did.

    Summing up, I ended up getting 2 Mullard NOS CV4003 for the pre and 4 RFT 12au7's for the driver positions. Now it really sings. Really detailed, punchy and not as bright as it was with stock tubes. Mids are very nice. Plus, they say NOS tubes last longer, and RFT weren't that expensive after all.
    Sharing my experience with my PL amp, hope it helps!
     
  10. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    I decided to get one of these Brimar 13D4 tubes, instead of the Pinnacle branded 13D5A tubes from eBay. I got it from Tc Tubes out of MN. These are rare, I understand these 13D4 tubes were the first in that series of 'industrial' 12au7 type tubes, then followed by the 13D5. Later the 13D8 (which I could find no pictures of) seemed to be the last of this series of industrial 12au7 types from Brimar.

    [​IMG]

    My current best tube in that 12au7 position was a (newer manufacture) Brimar CV4003 tube I bought from Upscale Audio -- until I substituted the one above yesterday to try out (in my Tavish Design Adagio phono stage). Danged if it didn't sound even better than the CV4003! Even more glorious tuneful depth to the bass, beautiful midrange, and an even more open top end, with really sweet extended highs compared to the previous 'best' tube in that position. It's hard to believe in a way, since I closely compared visually the CV4003 to the new 13D4 tube, and the internal structures looked identical, which might be expected since they're from the same company. But surprise, that older 13D4 is now the reference tube in that position.
     
  11. zek4u

    zek4u Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    New Tavish Adagio user. Wow! Thought the Bugle Boy was the best until I put the cv4003 back in. Bass - midbass much better. Highs don’t seem as rolled off as the other nos Mullard 12ax7 Tubes I have on hand. Other tubes right now are nos Sylvania 6267 and I guess the stock jj 5751 tubes.
     
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  12. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    First off my apologies to eflatminor, I really didn't want to derail the topic to a Tavish Adagio tube-rolling thread, but it does give an opportunity to discuss 12au7 tubes and their variants like the vintage Brimar 13D4, 13D5, and 13D8.

    "New Tavish Adagio user" Congratulations, a new user and already rolling tubes! Just like I did. :D And the rewards are well worth it! The performance of mine is now in another league altogether I believe.

    From my profile you can see my current tube lineup in it -- 3 Tesla E83cc, 2 Tesla EF806s, and now the rare (but stellar) Brimar 13D4. And just yesterday I found and ordered a possibly even rarer Brimar 13D8 tube on Ebay -- the only one on sale I could find anywhere currently -- just to compare and have on hand, because I admit I've become a crazy audiophile and such things are fun!
     
    eflatminor likes this.
  13. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    finally completed the small signal tube swapping of my Cronus Magnum (12AX7 / 12Au7) after ~ 3 years. Landed on all Amperex Holland for everything. You can buy the re-labeled versions much cheaper - e.g. the Philips / Mazda, etc.
    I had mixed and matched for years but the 60's Amperex Holland have the best sound for me- extended top to bottom, great imaging, a decent sweetness and warmth, etc. They literally transformed the sound of my amp.

    This video on post 13044 gives a glimpse-
    Post photos of your systems/rooms here! (Part 15)
     
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  14. zek4u

    zek4u Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Yes, eflatminor, very sorry to derail your topic. If it means anything , I always wanted to try the Brimar cv4003 in my Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp but never bought any. Saw how Kevin Deal highly recommended them. All the other expensive Mullards including some blue tip 12au7 tubes sound too rolled off in Tavish and Croft year but sounded pretty amazing in the front two slots on the Dialogue. My faves were the Baldwin labeled Sylvanias in the other sockets. Also like the Hammond lableled Amperex from Holland I’m the front two slots.

    From what I hear, the cv4003 have the beautiful tone of the nos Mullards but with better highs. Bass and midbass popped back when switch to them from the Bugle Boy. So I had very good luck with these nos Tesla’s with the yellow printing and a 32. Was so upset when I broke one. All the Croft guys love them in the phono sockets on the Croft preamps. I had amazing luck with them in the 7R amp. Well, I popped my remaining one in socket 1 on the Tavish. 5751 JJ in two and three. Brimar 4003 and the two Sylvania
    6267 in the other sockets. Maybe I’ll swap the Sylvanias back to the Phillips Miniwatts. So happy!

    Rest of system - Kuzma Stabi S, Stogi 12 VTA, 20X2L, SUP-200 SUT, Tavish Adagio, Audio Research VSI-60, Harbeth 7ES-3, 2x REL S2. Cables/conditioning: Niagara/Tornado, Triode Wire Labs, Auditorium 23
     
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  15. MichaelArcane

    MichaelArcane Purveyor of Terrible Opinions

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    New guy here, first post. This forum came up in a lot of search results for tubes and such and was very helpful so I figured I better join!

    I'm fairly new to the game as well, finally having the resources to properly dip my toe into the hi-fi audio world. I recently got a Primaluna EVO 400 and while I've been in love with it, tube rolling ease was a reason for me getting it. I just pulled the trigger on a pair of the Brimar cv4003 for the front center gain tubes, I'm anxious to see how they change the character of the amp. Ultimately I really would like to fill out the power section with KT-150s but that's a healthy outlay of cash and rolling the 12AU7s is a more reasonable place to start.
     
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  16. MichaelArcane

    MichaelArcane Purveyor of Terrible Opinions

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    The Brimar's came today. Have only listened to them a bit, so I know they need some breakin time, but I was curious how much they'd change the sound, and I would say quite a bit over the stock gain tubes. Much warmer, more bass, and overall a little more laid back and easier to listen to at high volume. I definitely love the warmth, I may have to dial back the bass on my GoldenEars, as I had turned up the built in sub a bit because the stock tubes were a tad thin. These are definitely not thin sounding. I'm going to just enjoy living with them for a bit before tinkering some more, but the tradeoff at least nitially seems to be the sense that there's a little less power. I adore the new sound but it lacks a bit of the clear punch the stock gain tubes had. Now that might come back with a little more burn in time, but it also might lead me to swap out the EL34s for KT120s or 150s, which was where I saw myself trending all along.
     
  17. Musician95616

    Musician95616 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Woodland, Ca
    6 KT150s with 2 Mullards CV4003 in the first stage and Brimar CV4003s in the second and third stages.

    Huge difference in sound! Great full sound with the KT150s and a wide warm tonality with the Mullards in front. Originally tried the Brimars there but like the more relaxed Warner sound of the Mullards
     
  18. moops

    moops Senior Member

    Location:
    Geebung, Australia
    Steve, you've mentioned this a couple of times in the past. What differentiates an amp that's been voiced with particular tubes to one that lends itself more to trying different tubes ?
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Well, nothing, but in the old days, they used whatever tubes were lying around, probably. Now, if gear is voiced with certain tubes, if you like the sound, you're in. If you want to roll a Chinese made amp with expensive NOS tubes, of course that is your right. I found it didn't help my Primaluna preamp when I had it. I stuck with the Chinese tubes. Same with VAC, I use what the amp was voiced with..
     
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  20. moops

    moops Senior Member

    Location:
    Geebung, Australia
    Great thanks ! That has set my mind at ease with regards to my current amp. Many on the net roll the stock Russian & Chinese tubes that come with the amp as soon as they can, but I've no desire to "just because" they're Russian and Chinese. I really love the sound as is and I've read an interview with the designer of the amp's internals and it appears he selected the specific Russian tubes for a reason, which has me leaning toward a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality.
     
    Steve Hoffman likes this.
  21. Zardozm

    Zardozm "Zardoz Has spoken"

    Location:
    Overland Park, KS
    I've owned my PrimaLuna EVO 100 Tube Preamplifier for 18 months now and have gone through 2 sets of the 5ar4 tubes. Has anyone else had a problem with this, why is it so hard on the tubes? I have several tube components and have never had this kind of problem. Is it the 5ar4 or the preamplifier.

    Thanks
    Mike
     
  22. Claude M

    Claude M Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I've been using the same 2 for a couple of years. How many hours a day you running?
     
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