Ronnie James Dio in Black Sabbath

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Siegmund, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. rock4ev

    rock4ev Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA USA
    In regards to the OP, I feel that the Sabbath made great records with Dio, Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules are tops for that era (great albums in their own right next to any metal or rock) and hold up still to this day, Dehumanizer is good and has some great riffs and good songs but being so many years between them, the times, sounds of the era and the era have it buried so to speak tho still a good album for Sabbath especially if you look at heavy metal or that time in music when it came out and what was expected to be heavy or metal was a lot different then 80-82. The Heaven and Hell labeled album the Devil You Know is one I haven't played enough to have critical views on, it is another different beast of an album in a way different times, but on the listens I gave it, and some I skimmed through, I still found some good tracks, good riffs and good lyrics and a few songs I really liked. All in all they did a excellent job making music together in 3 totally different times and that is no easy feat for any band so Dio did good when he was in Sabbath and not easy to do especially because of all the great music they had made from the start, again all in all Dio did very good in his times with Sabbath imo
     
  2. Curveboy

    Curveboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York City
    I don't think he worked well on the hits...Iron Man, Paranoid, etc...but as I said Children of the Grave and NIB...I can't listen to any version with Ozzy anymore. Dio is the man!
     
  3. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Forum Resident

    Location:
    NYC Man
    Another option is to like 'em both. :angel:
     
  4. Rick Robson

    Rick Robson What comes next?

    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro
    Yes, but in my point of view it evidenced his searching for a new identity in his new band, and it can't either be detached from his developing not just as a rock band vocalist, but also as a great singer he always was. But, at those times he also felt the need to include guttural vocal sounds for a metal band like Black Sabbath. I'm afraid that Dio had to reinvent himself to work with the band. And it sure was a new approach for both parties, which included Dio's more medieval appearance for his stage presence.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    Doggiedogma likes this.
  5. Rick Robson

    Rick Robson What comes next?

    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro
    Also in my viewpoint, Dio's unique and haunting melodic approaches both as a singer AND as a composer, established a freakin' new era both for the band and the heavy rock scene back then. Besides, the Dio-Sabbath continued doing great arrangements on quite a few songs, particularly on H&H and Mob Rules. I reckon that the Iommi & Dio partnership absolutely entered another sphere of heavy rock possibilities.
     
  6. Rick Robson

    Rick Robson What comes next?

    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro
    I pretty much agree on this, Children Of The Sea is a hell of a song with Dio at his best in my book, and particularly that live performance smokes everything on the studio track. And I'd include the The Sign Of The Southern Cross in the same case appreciation.
     
    vamborules and Doggiedogma like this.
  7. Rick Robson

    Rick Robson What comes next?

    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro
    I beg to disagree. I admit it all boils down to personal tastes, especially talking about fairly different singing styles and approaches here. But, anyway, personally I tend to overlook their performances when listening to most of Sabbath tracks (released before H&H) that was sung by both of them, since the other instrumental lines suffice to sum it up pretty greatly to me. In fact, while Dio-Sabbath sung melodic lines had more prominence and presence, I have a predilection for the Ozzy-Sabbath music just because of the other way round.
     
  8. Doggiedogma

    Doggiedogma Forum Resident

    Location:
    columbia
    And the start of the moloch horn sign for Dio [​IMG]
     
    CBackley, GodShifter and Rick Robson like this.
  9. Crungy

    Crungy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago USA
    Yup! Bill and Ronnie were musically incompatible. Love them both, but Bill went from 10 years of creating his wonderful pounding chaos to being told to keep a steady beat. Ronnie preferred a straight ahead timekeeper with a immense power (Cozy and Vinny). During the H & H sessions Bill was too out of it and missing Oz to argue, but once he sobered up he realized that he couldn't work with Ronnie telling him what to play. Tony never told Bill what to play.

    I can't find the interview, but Bill expressed his dissatisfaction with his drums on Born Again. Bill was late to the recording sessions and the the songs were already near their final stage with guide tracks and Bill was asked to play as closely along to what was already there with little room for creating his own thing. A similar situation to Geezer and the Heaven & Hell recording sessions.
     
    Hermes, Rick Robson and GodShifter like this.
  10. GodShifter

    GodShifter Negative Creep® (and I’m stoned)

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    To my understanding, Geezer played the bass parts to H&H upon listening to the tracks and formulating his own ideas. Craig Gruber says the bass lines are his and Butler either a) copied them or b) Gruber is playing them.

    Are we talking about the album or the band itself?
     
    Doggiedogma likes this.
  11. *Zod*

    *Zod* Forum Resident

    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    I never had/knew these records when they came out. I am trying to get into the post-Ozzy albums but it's hard. Sometimes I can force myself to like something and then actually end up legitimately liking it (Somewhere In Time - IM). I think this last time of listening to Heaven and Hell the needle moved just a bit.
     
  12. bostonscoots

    bostonscoots Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I loved "Heaven and Hell" - and without throwing too much shade on Ozzy, you can really hear in the music Black Sabbath's enthusiasm over Ronnie's broader vocal range. Their playing is tighter, the arrangements a little more daring (that funky groove Geezer's playing on "Lady Evil") and the vocals aren't buried in the mix. It's not wall-to-wall great, but the best moments of "Heaven and Hell" stand along side the classics that came before it, and better than anything that followed.

    "Mob Rules" I liked less - with the exception of "Turn Up The Night", a "side one, cut one" so good it set impossibly high expectations for the rest of the album...

    As a sidebar, I caught the "Mob Rules" tour at the old Boston Garden...and the show was a let down. Black Sabbath played 11 songs - the expected classics, choice cuts from "Heaven and Hell", two songs from "Mob Rules" and that's it - show over.
     
  13. GodShifter

    GodShifter Negative Creep® (and I’m stoned)

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    As I mentioned, I saw that tour too. The Outlaws opened. I can’t remember if Sabbath’s set was as brief as yours, but chances are good it was. It was too long ago for me to recall anymore.
     
    Doggiedogma likes this.
  14. bostonscoots

    bostonscoots Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I'd just started going to concerts at that point in my life - I was 13 or 14 - and when Sabbath kicked into "Paranoid" I remember thinking "That's it? It's only been, like, 11 songs".
     
    Doggiedogma and GodShifter like this.
  15. GodShifter

    GodShifter Negative Creep® (and I’m stoned)

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Yeah, they ended with that when I saw them, too. I’d wager the set list didn’t change much for that tour. I was 15.
     
    Doggiedogma likes this.
  16. vamborules

    vamborules Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT
    I love in Sign of the Southern Cross when he goes 'I can't accept it anymore!!' It's so heavy. I'm always just like yeah me too. I don't accept it!
     
  17. Curveboy

    Curveboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York City
    I think Sign of the Southern Cross has maybe my favorite vocal ever.
     
    BluesOvertookMe, Siegmund and tinnox like this.
  18. Rick Robson

    Rick Robson What comes next?

    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro
    This track, though not being one of my faves, is one more of those special ones that epitomise for me some of Sabbath's former, present (back then) and future stages. Until the minute 1:30 the composition clearly features Dio/Iommi fingerprint; then it brings back quite a bit of that classic Ozzy-era Sabbath spirit until the minute 2:06; and finally Dio's straight ahead approach takes it right up to the end, with also a more steady beat feel to it.

    BTW, it's also good that it shows them once again trying to re-edit their freakin' dynamics SO classic Sabbathish on that song, since it can be easily divided into different tracks.
     
    BurtThomasWard likes this.
  19. Crungy

    Crungy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago USA
    I am talking about the album. From all the various interviews I've read the making of Heaven and Hell was quite the adventure with many twists and turns. Dio is perhaps my favorite metal vocalist with Blackmore and Iommi being two of my favorite guitarists. Both those bands wrote and performed numerous masterpieces, but I've always felt each release had a few fillers. Too bad that Dio era Rainbow and Sabbath couldn't churn out more material. The Dio/Blackmore and Dio/Iommi partnerships created metal gold.

    Here is a great book with the best documentation of the making of Heaven and Hell which I've read.
    https://www.amazon.com/Black-Sabbath-Never-1979-1997-Rockdetector/dp/1901447162
     
  20. GodShifter

    GodShifter Negative Creep® (and I’m stoned)

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    My knowledge of the recording of the album comes from Tony Iommi’s book. Basically, Ward was a flake, Geezer quit for awhile and Dio and Iommi wrote most of the music with Dio playing bass guitar. That’s just from my memory.

    As I mentioned, Craig Gruber came in for some sessions, but his bass lines were replaced by Geezer when he returned. But you’re right, the sessions leading up to the recording of the album were fairly unstable.
     
  21. Paulette

    Paulette Your love for me has just got to be real.

    Location:
    US
    As far as I have heard or read, The Sabs never discussed any other solution to their problems than to kick Ozzy out.
    Maybe they used other possible solutions unsuccessfully. If they did, I don't know it.
    I feel angry about this. As far as I go, Ozzy was a scapegoat for Tony and then he couldn't even tell Ozz himself, to get lost.
    Dio gets 0 props from me because of this. I guess that's how Rock and Roll works but Dio stole John's job as far as I'm concerned.

    But, I think he had talent and I surprise myself when I have a positive response. His renditions of Ozzy era Sabbath are pretty flawless. Heaven and Hell is superb.

    Sad he died so untimely.
     
  22. GodShifter

    GodShifter Negative Creep® (and I’m stoned)

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    To my understanding, the band really tried to keep Ozzy in the band but he was too disconnected. He had been losing interest in the band since Technical Ecstasy and the band had to keep reeling him in. By Never Say Die he quit and they tried with Fleetwood Mac’s Dave Walker for a bit. Ozzy agreed to come back but would not sing any of the lyrics Walker wrote so they had to start over.

    Ozzy was such a mess by H&H they had to get rid of him. He just refused to show up for sessions and was depressed and unhappy. The band had to move on even if they didn’t want to. Essentially the band completely fell apart for a time until the Dio connection came together. It’s not a matter of Dio stealing Ozzy’s job, but Iommi wanting to move forward but felt stuck. Dio certainly did not lobby for Ozzy’s job, it was just a matter of timing and things happening. Ozzy shot himself in the foot with Sabbath due to his erratic behavior.
     
  23. Paulette

    Paulette Your love for me has just got to be real.

    Location:
    US
    No offense to you kind sir, but....Is it just me or is this soooo pretentious? Alternative Sabbath.
    Right..... He changed everything. My goodness
     
  24. BluesOvertookMe

    BluesOvertookMe Forum Resident

    Location:
    Seabrook, TX, USA
    All true. And who suggested Dio for Black Sabbath and made the introduction? Sharon Arden, later to become Sharon Osbourne.
     
    GodShifter likes this.
  25. vamborules

    vamborules Forum Resident

    Location:
    CT
    I think Ozzy would probably say that was the best thing that could have happened to him. In fact I'm pretty sure he does say exactly that in his book. Things did turn out pretty well for him in any case.
     
    GodShifter and BluesOvertookMe like this.

Share This Page