SACD players that can play DSD Discs

Are there any SACD players besides the few Sony models that can play DSD discs? Now that we are seeing some external DACs that can decode DSD files through various digital inputs, we need to have more players that can (a) play DSD discs and (b) also give the option of sending the pure DSD bitstream from those discs to those external DACs by way of digital coaxial/optical cable, USB and Firewire. This would make it much easier for people to play the SACDs they already have along with any new DSD Discs they make or buy. These are the same people who enjoy DSD so it would make sense to give them this opportunity. There will always be a demand for physical releases, so we should let music fans buy a product without any restrictive copy protection technology to get in the way. We gotta set DSD free!

On a related note, I'd also like to know which PC and MAC programs can play DSD files and output them to external DACs via digital coax/optical, USB and Firewire.

 

Isn't DSD the encoding process used for SACD? I know that DSD recorded discs can also be made into a redbook CD (Jorma Kaukonen, Blue Country Heart comes to mind).

 

Some more knowledgeable may contradict me but I believe the answer is none.

 

DSD is the encoding process for capturing audio at 1 bit/2.8 mhz or 5.6 mhz. The SACD and the DSD disc are the delivery formats; both contain the exact same DSD encoded data. The only difference between the two is that the SACD contains many copy protection schemes that (a) disallow the pure DSD bitstream from being sent out from any digital coaxial and optical outputs and (b) prevent any unauthorized copying on any consumer device. Some players can send out the pure DSD bitstream through HDMI and special i-link connections (much less common than HDMI), but both of those are tightly regulated to prevent you from making a direct copy to an external recorder; something that the coaxial and optical connections can do quite easily.

 

The Cambridge Audio 650BD can output DSD over HDMI - one of the reasons I bought one
Gary

 

I believe the answer to the OP question is "none". There are only a handful of players that play DSD discs, i.e. Sony XA5400ES and PS3. And neither of those will output the stream over optical/coax.

 

I thought I read that the DSD recordings created on the Tascam DV-RA 1000 cannot be played on a std SACD player, but only in the Tascam unit.

 

I think you could make it work like that with Oppo + HDMI-digital audio splitter

- Oppo can play SACD with DSD bitstream as output
- Oppo can output bitstreams over HDMI
- In a proper HDMI-digital audio splitter you could adapt the EDID so as to allow 1-bit audio streams in the HDMI-handshake and then it should be possible to send that bit-stream over SPDIF.

 

I understand the OP is referring specifically to DSD Discs, which none of the OPPOs can play.

 

You might be right. I got somewhat confused by OP's use of both SACD and DSD Disc in his posting.

My suggestion would only work for the SACD part.

But on the other hand from your link I understand that a DSD Disc is just a DVD-R disc with files in DSD-format, or does the disc itself also have some special format.

I wouldn't know how an Oppo would respond to that. Would like to be able to try.


-
aleg

 

That's basically how I understand it. Yes, there is some formatting via the TOC. I think the raw format is called DSF. It can be on pressed discs (not just DVD-R) as well.

The OPPOs wouldn't recognize the DSD disc at all. Maybe on future models?

 

So I'm a bit confused by all of this. So when a DSD disc is referred to, it is a DVD with DSD files on it which is not playable by pretty much anything? A SACD also carries DSD but SACD players know how to read this. When I play a SACD on my Oppo via HDMI, the DSD light on the receiver lights up. So I always assumed that DSD was the format of the file on every SACD. So are we just saying that DSD is on a SACD but it could also be on a DVD. A SACD player can read the DSD on a SACD but hardly any player (if any) can read the DSD files from a DVD?

 

The given link to the description of the DSD Disc format states the following:

So though an Oppo with its predefined formats might not be able to interpret it correctly, the format is not so very special and maybe could be played from any computer DVD-drive with some support (the site refered to offers a plugin for WMP to convert DSD to PCM on the fly) for DSD-bitstream playing.

 

A PC drive will not (read: never) play a DSD disc. To support the disc type, the decoder would need to have the DSD disc license from Sony. You would typically get this along with your SACD license. So, no SACD, no DSD disc support either. Unless you're a PS3, but that's obviously a Sony-born product.

 

Hmmm, either I understand it completely in the wrong way or you have not read completely the page you yourself linked to.

Regarding playback of DSD audio:

Regarding burning of DSD Discs:

Am I completely missing something or does it appear like there is more possible than you think?

 

That is correct, the TASCAM is a machine that is mostly indented for use in recording studios. It records DSD (and PCM) and then stores the DSD data in a .dsdiff format. These files are then used to author an SACD. This is an expensive process. It will input and output DSD via BNC connectors in S/DIF3 and DSD-raw. I have done a little research into these since I own one of these units. This link is an overview of SACD and Page 18 talks about the formats.

http://www.sonicstudio.com/pdf/dsd/SACD_FormatOverview.pdf

The TASCAM will playback the .dsdiff files whether they are on the HD or a DVD-R. I can also sent the files to my PC via a USB port and use a special version of Bronze Welder to manipulate them.

The TASCAM unit is incredible when it comes to sound quality and the fact that it will burn a disc without going to your computer. As a stand alone unit for needle drops it can only be matched in sound quality by the two Korg units (see below). The problem I have with the unit is that in DSD it is not user friendly with respect to editing and manipulating the .dsdiff files. For example it will only create a new track during recording not after. It takes forever to convert a .dsdiff file to another format (PCM) using the Bronze Welder software, which is the only software for the unit. Thus I have a love hate relationship with the thing. On the plus side I can plug in a keyboard to it and type file names and description very quickly.

DSD disc file format is .dsf. Korg makes two stand alone units (MR-1000 and MR-2000S) that record DSD to an HD. I think Korg also makes two hand held units with mics that record in DSD. The Korg units have no disc burning capability, you must send the files to your computer to burn disc. The Korg units will produce either .dsdiff or .dsf files (as will as PCM and I think one other 1 bit format). Korg makes software that you install on your PC to manipulate the files from the unit and burn them to disc. TommyTunes has a Korg MR-1000 and based on his reports the sound quality of the Korg is also remarkable and the Korg software is easier and faster to use.

FWIW, If I had it to do all over again I think I would buy a Korg, but I hope to try one some day soon.

 

Tony,

Thanks for the info. I have heard the Tascam units sounds great. I am only concerned about the lower price of the Korg units, but they could sound amazing as well.

As for me, I'm staying at 24/96 and working my way towards 24/192 only for the ease of editing that pcm allows. Plus, the sound is pretty good for my ears and a definate inprovement over redbook. Neither may become standard fare, but it is where I am living for my projects and some needle drops I do.

I have an SACD player and love the sound. I am looking closely at the New Maraantz 8004...a great DAC and a player all in one.

 

Yep, you're right. I totally forgot about the plugin for WMP. The plug-in (I'm assuming comes with license) from Sony, is the key.

So, anyone have some .dsf files and want to burn a disc and try out the plug-in?

 

It has been a while since I have looked at the DSD Disc website. It is not clear to me how the .dsf files are played back in all cases. It is clear that usinging the free WMP plug-in on a non VAIO player leads to a conversion to PCM. So what happens when you put the DSD Disc in a 5400 ES, is the playback native DSD (just like an SACD)? Also the software that Korg uses, it allows you to create a DSD disc buy burning the .dsf files you recorded on the Korg to a DVD-R (BTW recording DSD files to a DVD-R is not a big deal, the .dsdiff files that the TASCAM produces are also burned to DVD-R in the TASCAM itself). Does the Korg software enable your PC to play the DSD disc and if so does it enable your computer to play the native DSD or convert to PCM?

 

http://www.ps3sacd.com/dsddiscguide.html

 

Nope. In fact only last week another model than PS3 and the SCD-XA5400ES was announced: the SCD-XE800 (stereo only).

For Firewire (i.Link) this has been implemented but for SACD that interface has in the meantime been superseded by HDMI. For the other connections: forget it.

That's what Sony and Philips have done with DSD Disc format.

None, see above. Except Firewire perhaps but then (if you want DSD instead of PCM) you need a very specific sound card, such as you'll find in certain (but not quite all) VAIO PCs.

The Cambridge will play DSD from SACD, but not DSD Disc. It is based on an Oppo player.

No, the primary reason that you can't get DSD over coaxial or optical output is because no standard has been defined for that. The reason for that, in turn, is probably that there is no copy protection scheme for them, like DTCP (5C) for i.Link or HDCP for HDMI. If you had an SACD without copy protection, it still would not output high-resolution audio via coaxial or optical.

The main difference between SACD and DSD Disc is that the former can only be replicated in SACD pressing plants while the latter you can record at home. Besides that and the lack of copy protection, important differences are that DSD Discs cannot be hybrid and they lack multichannel audio – they can carry stereo DSD only.

Correct. I wrote to Oppo about that last year and they replied: "DSD is a Sony technology, and we have only seen DSD supported on some sony laptops, desktops and players. Our players can only playback commercially mastered SACD media."
I guess they're waiting for some more critical mass to develop. Admittedly, at this moment DSD is very niche, far more so than SACD. Here's a list of DSD downloads.

 

I wonder if you could trick an Oppo into sending bitstream DSD over HDMI by adding bitstream capability into the EDID of an Octava digital audio splitter and then capture the bitstream over SPDIF? It does work like this with the DSD converted into PCM from the Oppo.

 

Sony SACD Player SCD-CE775 - This is what I have. So why do the DSD Discs like the Stones' 2002 Hot Rocks sound so freakin' great ??? And no, it's not the SACD. It's the DSD issue.

 

I think you might be confused. If your Hot Rocks came in cardboard digipack, and have a slightly gold color, those are hybrid SACDs (mastered with DSD technology). If not, they are standard CDs.

A real DSD disc is few and far between.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Rocks-196...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1281645161&sr=1-1

Regular jewel case, DSD is all over the packaging and discs.