Schiit Audio (Mike Moffat) designs turntable

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Thouston, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    His job is way too easy lately. :(

    This is an interesting table and I have a feeling that this thread is going to be a bit like political threads sadly. It has already happened to a small extent just today.
     
  2. Hymie the Robot

    Hymie the Robot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    As should anyone with functional ears...
     
  3. LeeS

    LeeS Blue Note Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Do give it another go. Here are some reasons you may find it different and better this time:

    1. Entry level and mid-level tables are much better now. Lots has been learned.
    2. Using a good turntable is a lot easier/less tweaky now.
    3. Modern day vinyl is far quieter as a general rule than that of yesterday...especially true in my experience of audiophile reissues.

    and perhaps the best reason: LP sound quality generally beats digital until you get to $5K DACs and up. By this I mean, I think many $1K tables beat many DACs up to $5K. After that threshold, it gets tougher. I have a very expensive rig (especially when the new 3D tonearm is added in) and it beats a $12K DAC stack I bought last year. Or course, there is some really great digital out there from PS Audio, MSB, dCS, and Esoteric.

    One suggestion if I might. Whatever you get, have an experience analog friend or setup guy do the initial setup for you. Setup is very much an art and certainly experience based.
     
  4. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Yes it is so hard and I have discovered that you need to have in some cases more experience and be more artistic even than Michael Fremer! :righton:
     
  5. james

    james Forum Resident

    Location:
    Annapolis
    Man, I don’t agree with that at all and I’m a vinyl guy. In 2019, I’d put a 1000 dollar DAC over a 1000 dollar turntable setup any day of the week
     
    trd, Opeth, jhenry and 4 others like this.
  6. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Neither do I. Entry level turntables today (assuming you mean the usual sub-$500 suspects) are a huge step backwards vs. a lot of what was available in the 70s or 80s (or on the used market).
     
    trd and johnny q like this.
  7. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    Kinda true, unfortunately. Nowadays, you have to spend at least $700 to get a (non-used) turntable that's actually worthwhile/performs above 'entry-level'.

    Though I guess that in inflation-adjusted terms, that's not a very different situation than it was 'back in the day'.
    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  8. LeeS

    LeeS Blue Note Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    What $1,000 DAC do you have in mind?
     
  9. LeeS

    LeeS Blue Note Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    You are shifting the goal posts. I said $1,000, not $500.
     
  10. The sound qualities you get from a turntable setup is a combination of turntable, arm, cartridge, and phono stage. Getting in to pricing comparisons of TT vs digital by only comparing the cost of a turntable without considering the cost of a good phono stage and good cartridge is not a fair comparison. Good phono stages aren't cheap. Good cartridges also aren't low budget. Add all the pieces together for what I'd consider a suitable level to record playing performance and it's more than the cost of my digital setup (Schiit Gungir multibit and supporting stuff).

    I'm hoping that Schiit will also be introducing a higher quality phono stage. Something in the $500+ price point. Something without the compromises of their Mani phono preamp.
     
    gabbleratchet7 likes this.
  11. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Doesn't change anything.
     
  12. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    It might. $500 'tables are indeed 'meh' sonically, but there are some pretty capable kilobuck ones out there these days. Including of course the upcoming Schiit Sol.
    .
     
    LeeS likes this.
  13. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Interesting that money talks.. ..every time.
    Ok then I will jump in to that game.

    One important factor is that a digital setup is by far and that is not even close more like lightyears apart much easier to set up.
    In other words if you spend 1000 on a digital set up you will get nearly 100% the value of 1000 when you press play!

    But if you have a 1000 TT then when you drop the needle you never will with a 100% certainly get the sound quality of a 1000 TT. Because the art and knowledge that is needed to just to set it up.

    In other words you can have a 100 worth cartridge that is set up to 100% sounding like 400 (factor in different brands some have better value). But a cartridge that is worth 500 that is set up so you only get ~80% of it's performance you will also get only 400 of worth sound quality. In the example a 5 time more expensive cartridge can sound quality wise be more or less the same. So we get fouled by the price tag between different brands.

    The problem with humans is that we think that we know better than the rest.

    I have studied for years different ways of TT setup techniques for one and the same adjustment as example. And there's at least a handful of them as we all know.

    And I see even the best of the best that supposedly should know this setup stuff using suboptimal techniques.

    With that observation that I estimate that easily more than 90% of all TT cartridge adjusted are not 100% setup (not mine aither).
    And then they will not perform at their asking price. They will with more than 90% perform less than that the cartridge can perform in sound quality.

    But the good news is that we can get better sound quality by investing more time and education our self how to perfect a cartridge setup.

    But it is not easy when there are smoke screens of information on the internet.
    As a easy example is the general (another word for I don't care) rule of the tone arm
    parallel with the record. Yes it is only true if you have a conical shape of the needle. Who has that today (they that doesn't really care or know). We have more or less moved on with other and far better shapes and then the general rule is wrong and misleading still hanging around from the past.
     
    Bob_in_OKC likes this.
  14. LeeS

    LeeS Blue Note Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    This is solved simply by hiring a turntable setup expert. Most charge $100 for the first hour which is usually enough. You can also often find a friend who is good at it.
     
  15. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Regardless of whether you have an expert set it up, I continue to suspect that many of the anecdotal cases where someone prefer one turntable over another can be attributed at least partially to setup.
     
    JayNYC likes this.
  16. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Yes, that makes it more or less pointless to compare TT:bles.
     
  17. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Yes that is a good idea. But even between two different "experts" they do not do the same. And the end result will vary. It is no criticism, I just want to point out how hard/complex it is.
     
  18. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Forum Resident

    Location:
    US
    $500? Ha!
    That ain’t gonna be cheap.


    I’m not impressed by that design it looks like every throw together turntable every Tom Dick and Harry are designing these days. I don’t know what makes people think These companies who never designed a turntable before can suddenly design a killer turntable with a couple months of experience versus companies that were making them for 50 years. That’s why places like technics, Thorens, Rega, make good turn tables: Experience
     
  19. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    Bit of exaggeration there.
    .
     
    LeeS likes this.
  20. wavethatflag

    wavethatflag Scarlet > Touch > Fire

    Location:
    Pacifica, CA
    Well maybe I'm getting them confused. Is the older guy Mike Moffat? The older guy, in one of the long form interviews about the turntable, proclaims that he's a "CD guy" or a "digital guy" and quips something like, "While you guys fiddle with your cartridges, I'll be polishing my CDs," or something to that effect.

    So when you say was first and foremost a fan of vinyl audio, that's exactly it, was.

    I think he also insinuates that spending more than $250 on a cartridge is unnecessary.

    My opinion is that the best recorded and mastered digital of course sounds better than the best vinyl. But then I'm not into bass roll-off and surface noise, and all the care and feeding necessary to keep vinyl listenable.

    That said, I'm at least I'm open-minded enough to want to give this turntable a chance.

    I like the fact that a company with two guys that understand the pluses of digital audio are coming out with a (probably very high-quality) turntable without fetishizing the new product or the format.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
    trd likes this.
  21. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Me too!
     
  22. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I've actually sent them an email, telling them they should build a better phono, preferably tubed. They'd replied that's not a high priority for them.
     
  23. We'll have to see how the turntable goes for them. If the turntable is popular and does well then an upgraded phono preamp could get some priority or attention.
     
  24. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    When I wrote:
    "Yes, that makes it more or less pointless to compare TT:bles"

    Maybe maybe not.

    I think like this.
    A TT what is the same the motor and tonearm. The speed stability is comparable (wow and flutter). There it all ends we have different electronics downstream maybe a step up-RIAA-amp-and so on. Then it is different cartridges. :sigh:
    Even if there should be exactly the same manufacturer and model of cartridge. It is still endless way to set that cartridge up.:help:
    • What VTF is used in the specific range
    • What anti skating used determined by VTF
    • What SRA is obtained by what method
    • What azimuth that varies between cartridges (method)
    • What overhang uni-DIN, Löfgren A or B, Stevenson. Or why like classic orchestral pieces and use therefore UNI-DIN for lower distortion at the 60 to 67 mm when the crescendo occur.. (method)

    It is more likely that you can not compare TT than that you can. :shrug:

    It is a moving target. And that is probably why we read time after time that there is some saying that TT XX is great and some others that it were more or less worthless and a piece of crap.:agree:

    And that will also happen with this TT also. But it is only my own opinion.
    :cheers:
     
    Bob_in_OKC likes this.
  25. David M.

    David M. Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Champaign, IL
    Mike has been researching and planning this table for a long time. I’m going to stick my neck out and say it’s going to surprise some people.
     
    33na3rd and LeeS like this.

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