Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Thouston, Jul 29, 2017.
This would be my guess as well.
Fair points, but you may be overthinking it/overreaching.
Despite the significant variable that setup indeed is, almost no one believes that you can't compare different TTs sonically. Probably because there are some pretty huge differences to be heard, to the point where they are simply of far greater magnitude than any minor setup differences (assuming at least basic competency there).
IOW, you're very likely not going to convince someone that their azimuth or VTF being off a fraction is going to make their $40,000 Dohmann Helix TT sound indistinguishable from, or no better than, a Crosley. Well, unless a rabid wolverine has bitten their ears off.
But, take your arguments down a few notches, and you have some good points. Cheers.
By the same token, placement can make or break a speaker, and human hearing itself is widely variable. So, while comparisons/opinions can have validity, it's best to take them with a grain of salt. Especially if accompanied by terms like "hands down" or "blows xxx out of the water". Those can safely be ignored.
I would agree in a lot of cases.
Though maybe not all. Some products do, in fact, suck.
I had heard this would be released by now, anyone near enough to them to know the current ETA on Sol being available to buy?
Latest word from a Schiit representative is 'this Summer'.
Some good pictures were posted over on head-fi tonight. They still need to work out issues with casting the platter and they'll be ready to go.
Really nice to see some progress. But, "working out some issues on casting the platter"...could easily take them a number of months. Casting a platter and having it conform to what will have to be tight specifications for flatness, runout, thickness, etc., is not a particularly easy task, especially if you want to manufacture that platter under statistical process control to minimize scrap, rework, etc. This is why many manufacturers machine platters from acrylic or delrin, etc. Its much easier to hit and maintain the tolerances required with (CNC) machining than casting.
'This Summer' probably means "September 21st, midnight... if you're lucky."
What more can a TT do?
When we have a ok speed controlled. Ok wow and flutter. Not much more sonically. That 99% of us can pick up.
The TT as many others do not have any isolated sub platter so our generated vibrations will easier find its way to the stylus.
Yes they can like others have some flimsy rubber something or spikes. But imagine if you had that AND a suspended sub-platter that takes out other frequencies that the feets (rubber/spikes) let trough.
But then they can not meet their low price filosofi. Nothing new here but I like the tripod solution though. It is good and cost effective!
It will be interesting to see what they will not solve in the settings department.
Remember they are inexperienced in that field. Seen in this forum young TT companies that has been in the TT business make for example crude antiscating implementations.
Apparently the looks matter almost more for some than the sound. And that it looks good do not hurt.
Beside will probably look like a Ferrari, cost like a Chevy and drive like a Toyota.
So there have schiit succeeded.
(Remember that their price philosophy have no room for returns and broken units. So they need a TT that are realibile. And fool proof)
Great that they make this good LOOKING
TT for a broader consumer segment.
Yea, similar in some respects to the inexpensive Opera Consonance Wax Engine table, though it seems a bit more conventional in overall design with the gimbal tonearm and chassis mounted motor. I wonder if setup will be a problem for Schiit with so much controlled by the (likely inexperienced) end user ...
Schiit is not marketing this table for the inexperienced end user, they're warning them against it. This table is for the enthusiast who's not happy with the performance of other options in the sub-$1000 market and is willing to put in extra effort. 12" Carbon fiber unipivot arm, inverted bearing, detached low noise motor, on-the-fly VTA adjustment, etc... these are normally features only found together in turntables that cost much more.
This is an exciting upcoming release, the prototype has been available to listen to at their retail store for quite some time now and it's sounds amazing.
They've already been working on the castings for the plinth and platter for more than a year, it's not like they're just starting on it now. I really hope they work it out because the difference between a cast and machined platter in the final product could end up being $250 in the final price.
The fact that they're still working on it for over a year tells me, with my professional technical product development experience, that they are likely still struggling with the castings for the platter.
Its one thing to make a couple of platter castings that meet the specification for the tolerances, its entirely another to put that casting manufacturing process into statistical process control in a manufacturing operation and still be able to obtain the process capability (Cp/Cpk) that will allow them to manufacture this platter without a high degree of scrap or re-work. They need to be able to do this so that the 'table can be manufactured profitably. If they can't hit a Cpk of 1.33 or greater for manufacturing this platter, the cost for scrap and rework will bleed their Ops group white.
I can almost guarantee it will be a problem. I wouldn't be surprised if they charge a fat restocking fee on this item, beyond what the other items they sell usually get for a return, or refuse to take returns altogether. That would be the best way to dissuade folks that are inexperienced or lack patience from buying it. Marketing doesn't really mean anything because you'll get people buying it that shouldn't anyway just because they want a TT made by this brand.
For sure, they'll definitely need to take steps beyond just not offering it with a cartridge to keep inexperienced users from buying it.
Yep, a flood of newbs buy it, break the tonearm wires trying to set up the cartridge, jack up the main bearing and tonearm pivot too - then they want a refund. All very predictable for a product like this. Perhaps someone can offer a "set up service" for a flat fee for these for people that really want one but shouldn't mess with it.
Yes we must help our new friends that will come to this forum for support.
If I were to hazard a guess, I think that Schiit Audio has discovered that electrical engineering and mechanical engineering are two very different beasts. I say this with the utmost respect for Jason and Mike; I own and love several of their products (including a Gumby, Valhalla 2, original Loki DSD-only DAC, Wyrd, and Eitr).
That being said, one doeson't aquire the domain expertise and hard-won mechanical engineering core competencies of a Linn, Rega or SME overnight...
I agree with you completely, I am a big Schiit fan. But they are far from perfect. They struggled mightily with the Vidar, with many users, including professional reviewers encountering shut downs and over heating etc. I think Stoddard over estimates his engineering chops by a wide margin, although he has a good knowledge base conceptually. Obviously Moffat is top notch.
They talk a big game, and as you alluded to, they can't always deliver. BTW, I think the DSD DAC was total POS joke. They have been passives aggressive towards
DSD and vinyl and the end results show this.
That being said, I think the Saga and Freya are two freaking miracles.
Installing the belt on a TT with an external motor pod is difficult to figure out if you've never done it before. Someone will probably need to make a video.
Although it's nothing I'd buy, I'm glad to see they aren't rushing anything. That's a good sign.
Speaking of setup, there is a twist in the belt above, I have to believe that is a setup error!
Virtually NO product manufacturing company can always deliver. Understanding this basic precept is key to why quality improvement disciplines e.g. Six Sigma and Design For Six Sigma actually work and are so important.
They'll be the first to admit when they stumble or have bitten off too much.
Personally, I really liked the Loki DSD-only DAC a lot, especially considering its price point. Nobody bought them, but I am glad I have one; its a very good-sounding DSD-only DAC and for $179 its frickin' ridiculous.
Well, people have been using that belt twist for years, hardly new, some feel it helps stabilize the belt so less vibrations in those "free-air" sections of the belt when not contacting the pulleys, some feel it keeps the belt nimble, take your pick, but unlikely a setup error.
Separate names with a comma.