Schiit Sol- The Next Great Turntable?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by msinderson, Sep 5, 2019.

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  1. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Good on Schiit for handling this situation this way. :righton:

    However I find it puzzling that Schiit decided to enter this particular market in the first place... Their forte has been very high quality budget oriented electronics. And the entire TT market is just so incredibly full already. So I just cant help but wonder how many new TTs that manufacturers can realistically expect to sell today.
     
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  2. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I don't think you understand how beta testing normally works.
     
  3. Victor Martell

    Victor Martell Forum Resident

    Just saying, you know... however beta testing works doesn't matter - is not like there is a law - In fact what most software companies call beta testing is for practical purposes alpha testing... they are way worse foisting unusable stuff into users. That said, again it doesn't matter - the procedure at hand is this:

    Do you own one? then
    Do you want to keep it? then
    get $300
    wait for the new tone arm
    test it
    provide feedback
    else
    return it, get $700 back
    end
    end

    Why does it matter what you call it? they are going about this in a great way.

    v
     
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  4. Subagent

    Subagent down the rabbit hole, they argue over esoterica

    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    It works out nicely, really. Most of the first buyers should be a pretty hardcore group. Now, if they would like, they're consultants, many presumably and understandably grooving on the opportunity to contribute. If it isn't a twist of fate, then it's 'effing brilliant Marketing and crowd-sourced R&D!
     
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  5. Merrick

    Merrick The return of the Thin White Duke

    Location:
    Portland
    They felt they could offer a similar price to performance ratio for turntables as they do for other gear. There are a lot of turntables on the market but how many of them are really punching above their weight?
     
  6. Ken Clark

    Ken Clark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago Suburbs
    I have a Rega P25 and when I first turn it on I give the platter a push the help the motor get the platter going. It's a low torque belt drive and you gotta have a little of what's called mechanical sympathy.
     
    Joel S likes this.
  7. Mattking52

    Mattking52 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pasadena, CA
    Not sure if you've made the connection, but there's a reason for that -- the guy who wrote your protractor computer program [Conrad Hoffman; I use the same program as well!] is the guy who designed the SOL with Mike Moffat. He's the one they are flying out to California to fix the problem, because the tonearm is his design.
     
  8. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    If that’s your self-imposed budget, then that’s your budget. But be aware that you’re consigning yourself to entry-level performance... unless you go used.
    .
     
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  9. Melted Townes

    Melted Townes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ohio
    That's interesting, I heard he was involved. Did he actually design the tonearm, or just provide them with the math to make things line up?
     
  10. rocky500

    rocky500 Active Member

    Location:
    Australia
    I think you are looking at this from the wrong way as this is a little different.

    They released a product and soon found there was problems with it.

    They have publicly announced that they have stuffed up.
    They are offering anyone that bought one a full refund.
    But they are also offering people the choice if they would like to help in making this a better product by giving them a discount and offering parts to fix the table and give feedback.
    Even after all that and if still not satisfied, they will refund the money.

    Seems like a great deal to me to have a play with one of these new tables. Wish I had bought one too. :)
     
  11. dmckean

    dmckean Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    He designed the entire table but Schiit make some up changes to the design including switching to a cast aluminum base and platter, adding OTF VTA adjustment and switching to an AC synchronous motor because the DC motor that Conrad spec'd is no long available.
     
    Mattking52 likes this.
  12. Mike Wheeler

    Mike Wheeler Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Eugene, OR
    I received my Schiit Sol this evening and just got it set up. Overall I'm very happy with it, all the more so with Schiit stepping up to address the issues.

    I'm fairly new to turntables. I got my only one (since I was a teenager) last hear, a Music Hall MMF 2.3. Setup there was pretty much just VTF and antiskate. I watched the Sol setup video a couple times and read all the threads I could find to know what to do.

    Setup was straightforward by following the process and taking my time with everything. Adjusting platter height first thing helps with belt alignment, I think. Also pulling the motor a little further away to add some tension to the belt eliminates the belt riding up and down on the platter. The tension on the belt also allows the platter to start on its own without needing a push.

    Platform wobble looks to be about a millimeter per rotation, I don't know enough to be bothered by this.

    I got a Nagaoka MP-110 cartridge as it looks to be an outstanding value and was specifically mentioned by Schiit as working well. Like everyone else, I can't get it far enough back on the headshell to hit the dots on the template. I wonder if maybe the template is inaccurate for the turntable, even though it is supposedly made just for this table's geometry.... I aligned the cartridge the best I could without damaging the wires. Since Schiit has said they will address the issues and send us new parts as needed I will wait before worrying too much about the cartridge alignment.

    The anitskate weight seems to stay on just fine if you adjust the pivot point to line up with the notch in the antiskate bar.

    The rubber feet are screwed into the base, so it seems likely they could be changed for leveling feet pretty easily. I didn't mess with that as my shelf is level and I was anxious to get it all set up.

    A couple issues I haven't seen mentioned (or don't remember) relate to the cueing lever/platform. The cueing lever/cam is free to rotate 360 degrees and when in the raised position is a bit top heavy since the lever is up. It's a bit too easy for the lever to keep rotating and drop the needle again. I'd prefer a stop when raising the lever. When lowering the lever the cueing platform (or whatever the bar that holds the tonearm is called) seems to stop going down on its own about where the needle hits the vinyl, resulting in unpredictable playback. If I push the platform down the last couple millimeters all is well.
     
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  13. Mattking52

    Mattking52 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pasadena, CA
    Yep, what dmckean said. There's a post on another forum, where Schiit has a big presence, in which Jason Stoddard shared some of Conrad's design "manifesto" for each aspect of the turntable, along with what Schiit kept/changed about that particular part.

    For example, the tonearm:

    "Conrad wrote:

    Tone Arm
    The tone arm is a unipivot, and that will be the most controversial aspect of the design. First contact with a unipivot design is disturbing at best. A unipivot optimized for playing records will have tremendous wobble while cueing. The impression is of almost no stability at all, and a tendency to rock side to side like a pendulum, which is exactly what the arm is. The instability can be reduced to some extent by lowering the center of gravity, but that introduces sensitivity to off-center records and causes the tracking force to change excessively while negotiating record warps.

    That terrifying introduction out of the way, let’s talk about this specific unipivot arm. The longer the arm, the lower the tracking error and the less anti-skate correction need be applied. The arm has an effective length of 278.8 mm (10.97”), longer than most arms and even capable of playing a 16” disk in a pinch. A true transcription arm would be yet longer but the overall dimensions of the turntable get excessive, and almost nobody will actually play a 16” disk.

    The arm tube is carbon fiber, using the very accurate tubes also used in hunting arrows. The carbon fiber tube is extremely rigid, given its light weight. It’s also electrically conductive, not enough to provide shielding, but enough to drain away static charges.

    The target alignment for the arm is Lofgren A, also known as Baerwald. That gives the lowest overall tracking error and is strongly recommended over all others. The headshell is aluminum, with slots long enough to use alternate alignments like Stevenson and also mount most other cartridges. The headshell is a bit oddly shaped for several reasons. It’s critical to have perfect lateral balance with a unipivot arm, lest the arm list to the side. The rear of the arm is inherently balanced, but the headshell has to supply the offset angle and carry the cartridge with the stylus held on the axis of the arm. The headshell outline was adjusted to achieve lateral balance once all the geometric issues were resolved.

    There is tremendous adjustability hidden in this design. The support rod can be moved up and down in the plinth (held by friction at the moment) to accommodate both changes in bearing cup position, and to provide VTA adjustment once the bearing location has been decided on.

    The counterweight is a brass cylinder, 1.5” OD x 0.545” thick, threaded (1/4-28) onto a steel stub at the rear of the arm. The counterweight has a mass of 131.2 grams. The ideal counterweight will be positioned as close to the arm pivot as possible. That means it should tend towards a large diameter of minimum thickness, as opposed to a long skinny counterweight, or a counterweight out on the tail end of the stub. The counterweight is easily adjusted on the relatively fine thread, and locked with a knurled Delrin nut.

    [Jason from Schiit's] comments:
    1. The arm mechanism hasn’t changed very much from this preliminary description.
    2. I left out some discussion of a collar to limit the wobble of the unipivot arm. In the end, we decided that an unconstrained unipivot was best—after all, there is a standard cuing mechanism on Sol.
    3. The biggest change is beneath the arm, where we’ve added real-time-adjustable VTA. You can adjust VTA with a small knob while the record is playing, a feature (to use Conrad’s rather muted language) that is extremely unusual on a turntable at Sol’s price."
     
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  14. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Thanks, I didn't know that!
     
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  15. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    Strange to say:
    "The target alignment for the arm is Lofgren A, also known as Baerwald. That gives the lowest overall tracking error and is strongly recommended over all others."
    [​IMG]

    You can by your self see that that is not the case
    60 to 68 mm = 8mm Lövgren A
    68 to 119 mm = 51mm Lofgren B
    119 to 146 mm = 27mm Lofgren A

    Total number of mm that Lofgren A has over the standardized playing area lower tracking error than compared to Lofgren B is in total 35mm (8+27).

    And Lofgren B is covering 51mm (!) of the radie.

    And making the Lofgren B the winner and the best one and I would say that Lofgren B are the one that "gives the lowest overall tracking error and is strongly recommended over all others.".
    And not the Lofgren A as stated.

    Another thing is if Lofgren A was the one that give the the lowest tracking error why would the mathematician make another mathematical equation that was worse?
    As seen the second try is the one that I would recommend over all others in a overall sense.

    But Lofgren B has a edge in the first 8 mm that is useful for big crescendo at the end of classical music. But not as overall music taste.. :)
     
  16. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Why did they not make the arm with optional damping? Unipivots have during history been supplied with damping, it is only the modern ones that appear without damping. Small errors in record eccentricity or other disturbances may set the arm in motion and cause significant distortion.
     
  17. Cyclone Ranger

    Cyclone Ranger New old stock

    Location:
    Best Coast USA
    Are ppl still losing their Schitt over this Schiit? :)
    .
     
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  18. daytona600

    daytona600 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Grado & London Decca both more expensive than the TT
     
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  19. Optimize

    Optimize Forum Resident

    Location:
    EU
    That tells us more about the cartridges.. :)
    They have probably greater profit margins..
     
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  20. Joel S

    Joel S Forum Resident

    I shouldn't complain. People say I need a push to get moving, too.
     
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  21. Joel S

    Joel S Forum Resident

    With this public beta testing, Schiit may have just invented the open source turntable.
     
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  22. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    I do find it incredible that they may have not consulted an experienced designer or a member of their team is not experienced in turntable set up at least? So many obvious things missed. I am guessing they got so behind on producing this design that someone took a punt on releasing it to satisfy the expectation they had built up. Should have sent it to a bunch of Beta testers first. They are now doing the right thing (above any other company would) but it's going to cost them money and credibility. They do have a track record of flawed products which are corrected later. I have read warnings about the electrical safety of some designs when used on UK mains. Also the Mani had the radio interference issue which took years to address. So while their products are cheap by hi-fi standards it appears corners are cut to get there. Just seen a video review of the Freya and though it gave 90% sound of valve pre amps costing $1000s it was pointed out that tube rolling could damage the circuit board tube sockets are mounted on. Cheap solution but not a good idea. End of the day you get what you pay for. If you want a great TT (which may still be a challenge for many to set up) that is correctly and intelligently designed, you are going to have to pay a lot more, especially with recent price hikes (certain famous UK brands I'm looking at you).
     
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  23. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Yes I agree, damping is fundamental in a design like this.
     
  24. luckyno13

    luckyno13 Forum Resident

    Location:
    London UK
    Have you got any kind of proof to back this up with?

    It's pretty defamatory.
     
  25. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    No it's not. But some people I know to be reliable on forums with industry connections are pretty negative about Schitt. I'm not saying they are right just that the information is out there. Maybe the problems have been solved. Undeniably they have previously launched products that needed some more work. This included the Freya and possibly some of their DAC designs.
     
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