Schiit Sol- The Next Great Turntable?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by msinderson, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Dropbox with a link posted here shouldn't be any trouble.

    The last beta infogram from Schiit suggested the belt wobble may be due to too much tension, that is, the motor unit is positioned too far away from the platter. I agree with them as IME the wobble comes and goes when I reposition the deck. Right now it's just under 9" (center to center) and there's nary a wobble. Mind you, it squeaks and flutters more on start-up, and there's a barely perceptible chattering noise when the belt goes around the pulley but it's no trouble and is not audible on playback.

    I wouldn't hold up Rega as a beacon of how things should be done. The RB250 I have had a serious azimuth twist in the shell, which of course was not user correctable. The web research I did at the time I acquired it revealed that I wasn't the only one with an arm in this condition. And we all know the antiskate cannot be completely defeated, making precise alignment to a grid problematic. I could go on with other issues, but I've already made my point so there's no need to hash them out here.
     
  2. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Bay, CA
    Sorry to hear that your RB250 had an out-of-specification azimuth.

    But, let's get some things straight, right off the bat. Here are some facts regarding product manufacturing just to level-set: there are NO, and I mean, NO, defect-free manufacturing processes for any products. None. By Anyone. They do not exist. Doesn't matter what the product is. Virtually ALL manufacturing processes produce defective products. If you don't believe this, I encourage you to read The Toyota Way by James Likert. Even a 6 Sigma process, which is very hard to achieve still produces defective products.

    A mature and objective manufacturing company that wants to remain profitable and grow, understands and knows this to be a fact, and puts in place the appropriate best practices to maximize quality. They implement best-practices like those I've mentioned above, e.g., MSA, Capability Analysis and SPC (statistical process control). This is a small subset of industry-wide and proven best practices. Advanced companies also use best-practices e.g. modeling, variance components analysis, and Design of Experiments (DOE) to provide even higher quality products. DOE is key to doing studies, e.g. noise factor DOEs, to understand how factors e.g. lot to lot variability of raw materials increases transmission variation and thus impacts a process' Cp/Cpk (process capability). Transmission variation can directly impact and cause tolerance stack-up problems, and turntables are definitely the type of products that would be susceptible to this.

    As for my reference to Rega, the reference still holds and obtains: Rega has successfully run a very successful and profitable turntable business for over...40 years.

    I genuinely wish Schiit all the best; I own and use several Schiit products. But they've yet to run a profitable turntable business for...3 months.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  3. Balthazar

    Balthazar Forum Resident

    This seems fair, like comparing Toyota and Tesla. One has processes in place for profitably making reliable products, and the other doesn't.
     
  4. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Bay, CA
    That is correct. This is because when you try to tell Elon Musk what he needs to do to improve quality at Tesla, he doesn't want to hear it. This is because his experience is as an entrepreneur, not the CEO of a mature (as in, behaving like an adult) manufacturing company. Jack Welch, of GE, on the other hand, was very mature.
     
    csgreene and jeffsab like this.
  5. winders

    winders Music Lover

    Location:
    San Martin, CA
    Your 6 Sigma process overtures to help Schiit were not particular welcomed over at SBAF and were completely ignored by Schiit Audio themselves. Maybe that should be a clue. Of course, the way you presented it was over the top. Why do you feel the need to tell Schiit Audio what they should be doing as a business? If they need help, they will reach out for it.
     
    Schiityttnoob, allegro and Phil Thien like this.
  6. winders

    winders Music Lover

    Location:
    San Martin, CA
    Dude, stop it. No one wants to hear how you think Elon Musk or Jason Stoddard should be running their businesses or how great you think Jack Welch is....
     
  7. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    I work in manufacturing, so I'm well aware there's no such thing as perfect. I'm also aware that everything is built to a price point, and how large production runs can produce variation that can be sorted to suit different price points. Very little gets thrown out when something not quite up to normal spec can be sold in a budget line.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
    Puma Cat likes this.
  8. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Bay, CA
    The recommendations I presented were industry-accepted best-practices for achieving product quality. Regardless, I don't care if they were welcomed or not by some members of SBAF (though I think Marv was fine with it). SBAF suffers from the cult of tribalism that many other forums do; its SBAF's issue if they don't want to listen to sincerely provided objective and rational recommendations for implementation of industry-accepted best-practices to help Schiit make better products. If I didn't sincerely want to help Schiit make better products, I wouldn't have spent all that time writing up my recommendations; I could have used my time somewhere else just as productively.

    Why did I feel the need to make my recommendations? Because I really like the people and the company and its products, and I want them to be successful. As a product development product professional for many years, it was very clear to their process capability was not up to snuff. They were shipping non-conforming products and didn't know it. That is a problem.

    And, if Schiit want to remain a successful business, they will be open and mature about input from their customers. This is called, in the industry, Voice of the Customer. Furthermore, they have acknowledged they want input because they implemented a beta test program.

    Bottom-line is Jason and Mike are grown-ups; they are very, very experienced and smart guys...they can handle input, and if they are as mature as I hope (and am confident they are), they would welcome any and all input and suggestions for improving product quality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  9. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Bay, CA
    Last I time checked, there is free speech in this country. And more companies would benefit from running their business like Jack Welch did.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
    csgreene likes this.
  10. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Bay, CA
    I'd agree.

    But, I'm not sure it holds in this case; the production runs are low and the requisite tolerances are key for functionality.
     
  11. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    No, probably not in this case, but seeing as this table is a brand new product from a company with strengths in different technical areas, I'm willing to overlook the problems - which are indeed minor IMO. The gem is the design... even with the flaws it works well and sounds good. Once all is sorted out it'll be even better... and probably more expensive. I'm glad I bought in early.
     
    Puma Cat likes this.
  12. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Bay, CA
    I sure hope so, because I've been following the development of Sol, right from the beginning, for over 5 years now, and I want them to be successful.

    I think with your experience in Manufacturing, you could be of real benefit to them as a beta-tester. Good on ya...
     
  13. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    I sure hope so, but my expertise is in a different area, and I'm not privy to the reasons for their particular choices. But at least I'm not frothing at the mouth over the fact that what I received wasn't perfect. At best all I can do is post observations and provide feedback...and rock some tunes in the process. Life is good.

    Hey, they promised this table wouldn't be plug n play, and they delivered!
     
    33na3rd likes this.
  14. ConradH

    ConradH Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Canandaigua, NY
    Back to the needledrop, IMO, it's most useful if it's from a record you already own. Hearing some unfamiliar piece of music isn't helpful, unless it's piano or something that shows up a particular characteristic like flutter. It needs to be something popular. Thoughts?
     
  15. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Jazz is pretty popular. For me it have to be primarily acoustic, and with piano since wow and flutter is of prime concern to everyone.
     
    Lucca90 and Puma Cat like this.
  16. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    This thread would be better w/o someone constantly providing unsolicited and lengthy posts about how Schiit should be handling their QC.
     
  17. Puma Cat

    Puma Cat Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Bay, CA
    I like your avatar, IIRC, that's a jazz lp cover art.
     
  18. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I think when somebody goes out of their way to seem smart on the internet it's only polite to indulge them. Where else is self-esteem supposed to come from?
     
  19. Ripblade

    Ripblade Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Six
    Thank-you. It has some jazz to it... all pop rock does. Mystery To Me, by Fleetwood Mac. Not the best choice here, I don't think. Since we're gauging things like resonance control, it would have to be a record without too many engineering mistakes in it.
     
  20. Glmoneydawg

    Glmoneydawg Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario Canada
    Every company messes up at some point....it's how they treat you when they do.
     
  21. QC is what is going to determine whether this turntable is successful or not. The people who want this turntable to be successful maybe ought to start being open to QC fixes and suggestions. It is going to be very haphazard to assemble a turntable without having a good grasp of the QC and how the various tolerances interact.
     
  22. Balthazar

    Balthazar Forum Resident

    Now I'm feeling sad for us over here at SH forums. I just looked for the thread on SBAF and it appears @winders is correct.

    Schiit Sol Turntable Review - Episodic.

    Look at the date! We're getting sloppy seconds over here!

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Phil Thien

    Phil Thien Forum Resident

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The thing is, Schiit isn't reading it, it is just clogging the thread.
     
    allegro likes this.
  24. JMAC

    JMAC Forum Resident

    Location:
    PDX, OR, USA
    Dunno what all y’all are talking about. All I see is “Show ignored content”
     
  25. You can ignore the elephant in the room. The biggest challenge and obstacle as to whether the turntable is successful or not will be manufacturing QC.

    A big part of QC is figuring out which tolerances matter the most when assembling the final product. And that's where the type of analysis that Puma Cat describes is useful. Figuring all of that out by gut feel requires that you get lucky and have extraordinary instincts. Having an industrial engineer figure it out doesn't require luck, just a few days of their time.
     

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