Seeking recommendations for sanely-priced full-range speakers

You want to talk about dynamic compression as a Quad ESL57 owner? I like the Super HL5+ but the AN J is no worse in playing powerful music. And it's funny but when I was just at the last Audio Show in July (CAS) they played at very high levels




various ultra hard music and at a peter show Peter usually brings various metal bands

And

As for actual specs the AN J can take 150 watts per channel is a 93dB sensitive speaker - the super HL5Plus can take 150 watts per channel and is an 86dB sensitive speaker so if one is going to want to play really loud with hard hitting metal or rock or Classical - one is better off with the AN J - it can play both louder and deeper. Though if this is really someone's choice of music - I would not buy either one - I'd be looking at a horn.

 

I don't think AN is too worried - they have done well at shows without bringing their own corners. Their biggest selling dealer is my Hong Kong dealer and they don't have corners. And I think if you limit yourself to saying they must be used in corners you sort of limit who you can sell them too. The corner is an ideal position but not mandatory. But like a lot of speakers it takes some time to get them to sound their best - each room is different and you have to work to get them right. I remember covering the Bob Hodus Room who was showing the Tape Project. Bob worked at Abbey Roads Records. He was using FOCAL speakers which I had never much liked until his display - he raise the speakers off the floor above where Focal recommends and did a lot of treatment to the wall behind the speakers - long story short - they sounded excellent. But that is him not the manufacturer and he wasn't the dealer for the brand I don't believe.

And as Helom noted above - even if a room wins 9/10 best of show awards it doesn't mean everyone will agree with that assessment. Everyone can point to something in existence that was raved about whether it be an amp, speaker, movie, car, etc that you didn't like. I have heard rooms on the Friday at a show that was not great and by Sunday was superb. I have seen movies I hated that I re-watched years later and love it. That is why I try to audition speakers at least 3 times in three locations with different electronics. One's mood or bias can affect the listening experience on any given period of time.

I noted this in my recent show coverage. If the sales guy puts you off - that can negatively impact the experience.

 

Shindo doesn't have necessarily original design but they do tend to build around very expensive NOS tubes so they're a bit different in this regard because most companies including AN tends to sell highly available new tubes (so that you can actually find replacements). I am not extrememly well versed in Shindo but that is the gist

Well the idea was that people always blasted me for owning the non great measuring gear. The KEF LS-50 was product of the year with the "this thing measures great" kind of tag line. Further it is a popular speaker that most people have actually heard. When a Reviewer owns the Teresonics and ANs of the world most readers have not heard them so commenting on sound is harder to relate to as a reader. So, thought I, I will buy a speaker that measures great and that most people have heard.

In the end though - I traded and paid cash to get a pair of Audio Note K/SPe speakers.

It's why I posted the above video - I figured out of most of the posters here you seemed to value the older school quality of manufacturing and Peter's interests in making the gear over the business side of things. The idea that there is a tube type where there may only be 10 of those tubes left in the world - so making an amp for that makes absolutely no business sense but do it anyway because it should be preserved. Or take a tube and go and spend money to remake it - also makes no business sense. Business sense is to just make a 300B because people have 300Bs. Make a $300 at cost each tube bass with that crazy fireproof wood (I forget the name of it) because it's the best. It's nuts from a business perspective because how many will they sell? It's the kind of crazy I like - Try things - experiment - maybe something sounds better as a result. And perhaps some of that crazy is what attracts a lot of his customers - if he ran it like everyone else - it may be just another run of the mill boring outfit. Love em or hate em people talk about em - and there was that old saying that there is no bad advertising.

I remember being on a board in Canada - my thread was and maybe still is, outside those what are you listening to today threads, the biggest thread on the forum with the most numbers of eyeballs on it.

I had people sending me death threat PMs and phoning dealers to check what I had said. It got out of hand. LOL. But the local dealer was happy - they had a huge number of people go an listen just to prove me wrong. And some would say - yeah that AN is crap - see I heard it - but more that were telling me they were putting their stereo up for sale. The dealer couldn't care less either way - if they like Dynaudio more they would sell a Dynaudio!

And I didn't mind if people hated it because IMO the more stones people turnover the better and happier they will be. If I were going to buy a $2,000 speaker - I would definitely want to try a Magnepan - how could anyone NOT want to at least try them? They have been raved about for decades - the last stop in speakers etc. You would, at the very least, want to turn that stone over and give them a very serious audition before buying your B&W. Maybe you don't like it but you tried it. That's better than buying the B&W then 3 years later you hear the Magnepan and your jaw hits the floor like WOW this craps all over my B&W - now you lose money selling your B&W.

Take SET and your HE horns - most people have never heard it - it's superior sound. I'd rather people get to the end game earlier with less wasted cash. I figure most people will get to tubes and HE at some point. Turn over the rock earlier.

 

Richard, I don't consider your suggestion of AN speakers in this thread or AN products in any other thread as problematic, but most people make a suggestion once in a thread and leave it at that. On audio forums, people consistently suggest their own favored products, but your repetition comes across as proselytizing, rather than educational. That's probably why I thought you were a paid employee of the company, and not just an enthusiastic consumer.

Based on the anecdote you related about the Canadian forum, it seems you don't mind being provocative and attracting negative attention. Maybe you even enjoy it, and if that's part of the hobby for you, who am I to disagree?

 

I've posted in threads that I know the limitations of the Quads when it comes to dynamic range. They're also ~$5000 speakers and not the $70k Audio Notes I have heard on two separate occasions at different dealers. I basically have the Quads to give me a reference level for the type of midrange I am trying to achieve for my bespoke horn system. And my wife really likes them for chamber music.

I don't have to look at the sensitivity numbers (which Audio Note fudge, anyone can give the sensitivity number of their speakers when pushed into a corner), I'm using my hearing and experience listening to live classical, even the very top of the line Audio Notes compress the heck out of the music and turn it into a homogeneous blur. My opinion is really not a controversial opinion either, it's just this forum with its Audio Note safe space thread where people think they can do no wrong. On forums where there are no advertisers for the brand loads of people say how they sound very compressed with music with high dynamic range.

I am a bit surprised you are equating just the sensitivity with how a speaker can compress music, you should always listen to a speaker for this don't rely on the numbers, very surprising I have to tell an Audio Note advertiser this with how little they care for measurements . The Zu speakers I've heard (I believe rated higher than Audio Note?) also do this and so do the very high sensitivity front loaded Fostex driver horns, ie Cain and Cain though I've heard others than just them, including the Lowthers the old US distributor would bring to audio shows.

I just looked up that Noisia Split The Atom release, it has a DR rating of 4, holy smokes! Album details - Dynamic Range Database

You've completely misunderstood what I mean by high dynamic range music. My Cerwin Vega speakers that I had in high school would be able to play that sort of metal music too, not really setting the bar very high.

Edit: saw one of your other posts above, most Chinese audiophiles I know (in real life and forums) listen to the very type of simple audiophile music I described on the previous page. I get why they want highly colored systems like Audio Note where dynamic range doesn't matter. One of my friends from Victoria is always raving about how good James Blunts music is.

 

Richard, we understand your arguments for the AN brand. It's the condescending tone you take toward other brands and preferences in almost every thread in which you participate that members find obnoxious. You make fallacious,
blanket statements about the performance of various design approaches. Though you do recommend other brands occasionally (usually after being accused an AN shill), your posts still insinuate that AN is the only competent manufacturer and that musical enjoyment can only come from high sensitivity/ low SET power.

 

I would recommend Goldenear speakers. This brand has TREMENDOUS value and A LOT of people agree. I just built a home and must have 8 different GE speakers including the Triton References which are absolutely amazing. I would recommend the Triton Five or Sevens which are not new so probably could be found for cheap. As Paul Mcgowan of PS Audio says 'if you going to spend money, spend it on speakers'. Also with a small room, might want to consider quality bookshelves with subs. Got to get down to 20Hz!
Tower Speakers: Triton Towers Overview | GoldenEar Technology

 

People on the Internet exist to make negative comments. In reality, they have no effect at all on anyone's life, so in the end, who cares?

Of course, people want to hire you, until you do a review where you state what you really think about one of their advertisers products.

I didn't realize that there U.S. presence was that low!

 

I have always been a bigger is better kind of guy when it came to audio. I bought my first Crown amp, a DC-300A back in the middle 70's.

When I first got my Altec A7's, I powered them with a 475-Watt Crown Class "D" commercial power amplifier.

With some types of music it would be bone chilling. It would remind me of 18-wheel trucks at a drag race, the dynamics would go through your body.

When I first bought a tube amplifier for it, it was a pair of Rogue M-120 monoblocks (from eBay). It was then, I learned what tubes could bring to the table, with a quad of KT88's (which I am quite fond of) to the table.

Both the Crown and the Rogue monoblocks (now upgraded to M-150's) are great amps and they can really do some special things.

As my tube journey progressed on, I tried various vintage integrated's and a Fisher 500C receiver. It continued to more modern tube amps, with power ranging in the 30-Watt range and the sound was becoming more special. But, I note that I was beginning to listen more to vocal's, jazz and instrumentals.

Then I did try, out of curiosity, and I do have to say, that they did remarkable things that I never even had a thought that was possible.

So, there is really something about single ended amps and speakers with high sensitivity that you are not otherwise going to connect with.

Still, like you, I am not stuck on any particular speakers amps or anything else. I think that most of my gear does sound good or better than most people will ever own and be able to listen to. I think that this would also apply to you.

I know that I myself would never be happy unless I was trying yet, something else.

Vintage has a sound, modern has a sound, solid state has a sound...

The thing is, that very few people are going to do the things that I have done with the Altec's to get them to the point where they are now. You can't just go out and buy Altec's, Klipsch or whatever and get them to sound that way and that is only with a ton of supporting electronics.

I don't necessarily think that, owning other equipment as I do, that you must have high sensitivity speakers to get excellent sound, not at all. But there is something that you can get out of the right highly sensitive speakers, properly done, that you simply can not obtain from less sensitive speakers and higher powered amps.

The keyword in the above statement is "properly done", which is a BEAR to accomplish.

It is something that is just not going to be practical for most to do in their homes.

But, there are so many other attractive alternatives.

 

Well I can't really argue the case - this is subjective - you don't like em - you don't like em - I've looked through the dynamic range list and I have a number of albums that are well over 10 and all of them play fantastic. I have been into audio for 30 years and I have heard the top Wilsons, Revels, B&W (Nautilus), Wilson Benesh, Focals, Tannoys, KEF Blade, Bosendorfers, Tidal, TAD, Reference 3a, MBLs, YG Acoustics, AvanteGarde (and several but not the top Acapellas) And Cerwin Vega and a huge number of massive horns.

As I have noted about a dozen times on most forums when these discussions begin that the AN E is not a SOTA (State of the Art Speaker) in any particular area - if you are someone who listens to Iron Maiden or full scale loud pedal organ speakers from the above list will do a better job - they move more air and have more dynamics that is possible from two way stand mount. This with this music those speakers are "better."

I don't think I have argued that but if I did then I am making it clear here that I am not. AN's are by no means perfect speakers - they make compromises and one of those compromises is macrodynamics at high levels. But then Audiophiles have generally moved past the boom car days. I have recommended and still do Cerwin Vega - precisely because they have strengths that frou frou audiophile speakers like more expensive B&W 805s.

Audio Note speakers start at $5,500 and as I have also said - more expensive models are for those people trying to extract more nuance out of the platform. They're not dummies - they like what they heard - but you are not getting any more bass depth or treble extension out of the $100k model over the $5,500 model. And that is something people probably don't understand because in most brands you pay more you get another woofer or a super tweeter or a bigger cabinet.

The vast majority of Audio Note buyers are classical music listeners.

I bring
Beth Hart & Joe Bonamassa Seasaw
Stevie Nicks Crystal Visions
Aurora
Guns N' Roses

Which have more dynamic range than Split the Atom but Split the Atom has other uses outside of dynamic range.

 

Well I like to recommend my first choice favorite first. If I listen to say a $10k Audio Note system that I score an 88/100 and the next closest $10k system IMO I score a 78/100 then I am going to give the first recommendation and fall back to my second recommendation only when I have to.

Musical enjoyment is separate from the La La Land of audio. I can enjoy music on my Samsung with the supplied $1 headphones. I hope everyone can.

 

There are more rich guys in Asia. When I bought my Empress Silver amps - I handed my credit card over and they put it it in the machine - before the receipt was even printed my bank sent me an emergency text message - like WTF you've maxed out the card. But while I was in the store a fellow handed over in cash - I watched him and the employee count $90,000 HKD in $1,000HKD notes. He bought an AN power cable and one run of what looked like 2 meters of IC cable. That's the thing too - he paid cash. I paid the credit card off immediately. I just like collecting the cash back reward points.

There are far more people in Asia with far more disposable income. Or it seems that way.

I am just a High School English teacher and I can tell you that if I was teaching in Canada - I'd have nothing of what I have now. And a lot of student debt.

 

I am a bigger is better sort as well - Ideally I would have large horns and it doesn't HAVE TO BE a SET. I replaced my $7500 LM 219IA SET with an EL84 Push Pull at 1/8th the price. The AN E is a two way, albeit large, standmount speaker - there is a limit to what it can do. So the thing is compromised. Laws of physics but not every can put massive horns in their space. I have the money to buy large horns - if pushed I might even be able to afford Acapella but I can't fit them in here.

Everyone has some sort of practical limitations whether be money, space, WAF etc. I look at things and say right - I chose the AN E/LX - retails at $5,800 and then I looked around to see what could be had that could be powered with an 8 watt amplifier and has good bass so I don't need a sub - can play my wide genre of music with bass. The class A $6,500 B&W N805? Well the press isn't helping me.

Harbeth M40.2 - well it's what $15,000 needs way more power and way more space. Ditto DeVore. Klipsch - no, Zu Audio well I heard most of the line at Hit Audio where I bought my LM amplifier. No. Tannoy - too big. It is NOT easy.

 

There are smaller Tannoys (two on my list, BTW) - Tannoy Revolution XT 6F and 8F, and they're pretty affordable, too.

 

Boxy bass boom is the major weakness of the XT6Fs in my experience. They didn't quite get that twin cavity port just right. I also was a bit disappointed in the build quality even for the <$2K price. I'd bet your Zus are better overall. Have you checked into Omega and Decware?

This is an interesting model I'd like to hear:
DECWARE High Definition Towers model HDT

 

Thanks for letting me know. Boom is exactly the pest I'm trying to get rid of, in the living room. But I was considering them for the bedroom, where the room acoustics are a bit better, and to be paired with the PrimaLuna 4. It's not a pressing matter though as I've resolved to try a sub there (first time in about 25 years), to see if it may liven up the sound of the PSB's I have in there, before I jump into the Tannoys.

As to Zu's boom, as I've described earlier, I'd played with placement a bit, and got the boom reduced somewhat, then I bought some thick neoprene gym tiles to put them under the speakers. It has tamed the bottom port some more and the resulting sound is almost free of boom, "almost" being record dependent. Some records still exhibit some, others don't. Overall, I can live with the sound now. The speaker position is very uncomfortable as far as getting the amp on/off and reaching the CD towers are concerned. Also, them being slightly behind the Wharfedales, now I definitely need to sit in the sweet spot to hear both speakers equally, whereas with the Wharfedales up front I can still enjoy some stereo imaging even when lying on the sofa to the right of the sweet spot. The W's are amazing in that respect - they fill the whole room with 3D sound.



As to Omega and Decware - yes, I'm aware of those, and often salivate at the Omegas. But for now my issue is solved, so new speakers for the living room are not a pressing matter.

 

It runs about $5k to buy restored A7's and upgrade them like I have. Which is why I did it.

I have owned different Altec commercial and home speakers throughout most of my adult life, never having imagined how well they are engineered, until I did the work on my main pair.

You had the LM 219iA and I had the slightly smaller (and less expensive) LM 218iA. While I have owned and am a very big fan of lower powered EL84 amps, I don't think they can touch or do the things that the 22-Watt 845-based 218iA can.

Having too many amps, I passed the 518iA on to another forum member and decided to keep the AN Kit EL34 amp, which is in the 30-Watt range ans sounds close to the SET.

If I want to go big, then I still have the large Rogue M-150 KT88 monoblocks. But really with even the 22-Watts with speakers of about 100 dB. sensitivity, it can take you to rock concert levels.

But one day, I put some $45/pr. modern production Tung Sol 6V6GT tubes in my little Decware 3.9-Watt Mini Torii and it is the perfect amp to match with the A7's.

It is a unique Decware design, being a SEP (Single Ended Pentode) and it has characteristics of both single ended amps and the dynamics of a class A/B pentode.

Out of the dozen tube amps I have used with the Altec's, this has the best matching sound that I have heard to date.

Still, I use a separate sub woofer. Works for me.

 

This picture looks different than an earlier one with a door on the right. Maybe I am seeing things. This looks to be a significantly bigger space.

Yeah - the best advice to me is not to spend money unless it's really going to move the needle in a big way.

What electronics are you running? Different amps for each speaker by the looks of it.

 

Glad to hear that that is working out for you. I was curious if that helped, as I thought that it might.

That is my overall impression, if with the majority of recordings you can get that superior balanced sound that you are looking for, then I feel you have gone as far as your system will realistically allow.

Bass on recordings is funny that way. Since I route my sub inputs from the HT processors LFE channel, I can use the processors remote control to raise or lower the bass for recordings that need some nudging.

Sine I keep power amplifiers behind the TV, I found that I could buy inexpensive radio controlled on/off AC switches from the hardware store and they work perfectly for that and are very inexpensive.

The W's have always been that way. When I first got in a pair of vintage W70's (made in New York), I didn't have anywhere to put them, so I stacked them one on top of the other and powered them with a small 22-Watt Scott 222C integrated amplifier that I was playing with at the time.

As it happens, they are in the photo from my post number 244 in this thread.

They had a BIG room filling sound and I never even turned that amp more than halfway up.

 

The problem Helom is that I made my last post on page 7.

Then you said this "So OP, if you're still following, your solution is to forgo your budget of $1200 and buy some Audio Note speakers."

Now exactly how is that on topic? Not
Does it help the OP in any way? No

The entire point of that post was a dig at me because YOU want to carry things over from other threads.

I then replied that in fact they make speakers at $750. Not ones I particularly like but they make em (AX-One) - which corrects your childish angry post that insinuates that all AN is so expensive.

But you still couldn't let it go "AN sells speakers for only $750, and of course, whatever they offer, at any given price point, is the absolute best. Come on man, you've been around here long enough to know that."

Another outright lie. Albeit I do think some items are the best, to me, at a given price point.

I don't know about other people but if I listen to 10 $6,000 loudspeakers and I buy one of those 10 then the 1 I buy SHOULD be the one that I think is the best one. I mean does anyone do that and decide - hmm I think I will buy the $6,000 speakers that sounds 2nd best or 7th best? What am I missing.

When people are uncivilized jerks to me I will do the same back. And unlike most forumers who are chicken **** cowards hiding behind computers and fake names - I post my real name. If you have issues with me - be a man and say them to my face.

 

OTOH, the DR for the tracks of Roberto Gerhard's "The Plague" (an old favorite) range from 12-19 and that's further enhanced by the drama.

 

Will you be at RMAF next year? Maybe we can meet up and I'll tell you exactly what I think.

 

After a couple of decades without an stereo, a pair of these got my back into audio.

Abit in ways that I could never have dreamed of.

 

I should be at CAS 10 - it's the only show in the west I can attend.

 

I have family out there so might be worthwhile for me to make that one. AN will be there?