Seeking recommendations for sanely-priced full-range speakers

Shana Tova!

 

I have everything you don't want, but I have never used anything that suited the smaller bedroom environment as well, in my case 13' X 15'. In an 11' X 11' room, I can't imagine your blasting in there. I only show you this where you can at least consider. You dislike subs, and I think they are necessary on all but the largest most expensive loudspeakers, and I have always been able to integrate them into my smaller systems with very satisfying results. The thing that really catches my attention is the size of speaker you are using in an 11 X 11 room. We have talked Polk before when you were about to buy the 707's, but the smaller Polk's are just so nice, wonderfully built, heavy, (3) way design and the small ones work with your super tweeter as well as the larger ones. The money saved by using the Polk LSiM 703's will be substantial, lots of money saved. You hate the subs, and I think they are wonderful. I do use a smaller DT powered sub with mine and I'm just telling you, in a 13' X 15' room they are wonderful, with ALL music sources.

My sub is too large for this bedroom, however I have owned it for years and it does a nice job, and it just integrates with the smaller speakers so well! If you had not mentioned the size of the room, 11 X 11, I would not have even suggested these, but they are so darn perfect for your smaller room, absolutely perfect. Their bass port design will work for you, it's the same design as the 707, the port directs the low frequencies in 360 degrees from the rear, not the bottom.

 

If prices change, then they must change somewhere, which is why we have databases.

I really don't accept that a manufacturer has no way of providing product pricing this day and age on their website that is up to date.

It is obvious that they don't care.

I really could not see me buying from any company with this attitude toward a potential customer.

 

I use Era/Peachtree D5 (Design 5) bookshelf speakers like you do in the bedroom, integrating a small 75-Watt Martin Logan Dynamo quite successfully. This does provide the added bottom to complete the frequency range.

Read: Lot's of money saved!

I don't think that their bass port design would be a problem for any small room as I feel their rear ports are designed so that they can be located close to room boundaries.



There is a cone that points into the rear port and the sound is directed by the plate at the base of the cone 360° laterally, with relation to the rear wall. It does not direct the bass energy toward the wall, it spreads it out evenly along the wall. This design would prevent "one note" bass boom, while reinforcing the lower frequencies.

 

This is very clever.

 

While I do own a couple of Martin Logan subs, I have never been impressed with any ML panel speaker that I have ever listened to at their dealers. I have yet to think that any of their bass modules that I have heard integrate well with their electrostatic panels.

I love the way that "the room" is always the blame for a poorly set up and not good sounding room.

From the photos of audio shows



Most of the rooms are always about the same.



Show after show...



No matter what show.



People sit in the sweet spot and listen...



And yet, all of these "learned" manufacturer's haven't learned how to properly set up their gear for a decent audition?

Come on, let's stop blaming the rooms, which are just ordinary rooms, year after year, show after show.

 

Maybe that is why there are so many used AN speakers for sale? People buy new based on the fantastic descriptions, and then sell based on their listening experience?

 

Actually it makes a lot of sense to me. Prices tend to vary in different markets. Import duties and shipping etc and on fairly high ticket items where exchange rates fluctuates.

All the US Dealers have a price sheet and so does my dealer in HK - when I ask about a product out comes a book of prices.

But that price list is different in the US than it is in Canada or Hong Kong etc.

So what to do - well you could put on the website that the AN K/LX is $2500 USD that is currently $3275 Canadian but the Canadian dollar has in the past been par or higher than the USD. Maybe in Canada the speaker is $2800 Canadian - ooh a better deal than in the US. In Hong Kong it might be 17,000HKD a better deal yet again. Based on import duties tariffs etc.

And why place a higher standard on Audio Note - most all companies do not put prices on their websites. Do you see a price on B&W's website or Harbeth, Line Magnetic, Arcam, Rotel etc. I don't. Mass producers yes but they also tend to have the same price based on one currency (usually the USD) around the world so that if you buy an Apple iPhone and it's $1,000 you will pretty much pay a $1000 in the Hong Kong equivalency at the time the retail giant bought the phones.

The same people who buy most of these brands have to go to or phone their dealer to ask about the price.

 

I understand that many manufacturer's don't put pricing on their web sites, but their dealers do.

Which is why we have web sites and catalogues.

They don't even provide that much in the way of information about their products.

What can I gain by looking at a product listing like this one that I copied from their website. Not much at all.

As specially for products in the price range as these are.



But, as you say...

If companies are inclined to provide pricing information to prospective customers, they do.

 

I used to say the same thing and say that rooms can't be used as an excuse and that is sort of true if the speaker's are designed to operate free standing - such speakers are designed to "room out" the sound and the Floyde E Toole school of speaker design is touted for sounding the same regardless of the room. After all free standing means that they are away from room boundaries and are trying to take the room out of the picture - so such speakers should ALWAYS sound great regardless of the room. Also most of those free standing speakers are designed for nearfield listening which further reduces room related issues.

That is not so true with dipoles or corner loaded speakers the latter relies on having a stiff wall and corner - which is not hotel rooms and the latter generally need a LOT of space behind them and to the sides. That is rarely available in a hotel. So they have more of an excuse. I would also include the MBL omni-directional speakers as they are heavily reliant on set-up that probably can't be done in a day.

I always try and listen to speakers and systems in thee rooms with different electronics before I judge a speaker - and all three can't be at a show. Too often a speaker might sound terrible at one show and quite good at another. Thus, it has the capability of sounding really good once then it can again. Any speaker can suck in any given room or set-up. Even my favorites.

 

That's kind of the point isn't it. The vast majority of speakers can designed this way and can be (or should be) able to be properly demonstrated in rooms at audio shows.

Regardless, the manufacturer's need to come up with a plan, hadn't they?

You can build artificial walls and corners that are portable and can be used at shows.

If you can not successfully demonstrate you product, there is not much point of showing it?

Again, it is not an excuse. It is up to the manufacture to successfully demonstrate their product.

And, again, I am saying that most show rooms are similar and it should not be beyond the abilities of the manufacturer to learn how to make their products sound good under show conditions.

That is the who point of my previous post.

 

It's a pricing strategy that's common in the furniture and luxury goods sectors. It basically allows the dealer to set the price. Also makes it easy for the seller to nickel and dime the customer for upgrade options.

 

Your local Audio Note dealer will be able to give you a price after finding out how much money you've got.

 

exactly.

 

Well above that listing there is an explanation of their design https://www.audionote.co.uk/an-e-speakers

then they also have their manuals for their speakers on the website which goes further https://www.audionote.co.uk/resources

But to be blunt Peter and Audio Note are kind of old school - back when people would got a proper dealer and audition stuff or take stuff home to try. In England they will bring the stuff to your house set it up and let you try it for a few weeks. Some dealers in other parts of the world do this as well. Warren Jarrett has a dedicated house for the purpose.

Audio Note is not for the Music Direct online shopper who reads reviews and the sales pitch white paper and orders online. Audio Note doesn't advertise either - their dealers pooled together to put out an advertisement. There is a catalog that AN has of speaker finished - not just photos but the actual pieced of wood so you can sit at the dealer and look and touch the wood. Dealers pay for that catalog.

It's a completely different kind of company and yes that means it borders on a cult like thing. They have been hugely successful doing it the way they do it. So if it ain't broke don't fix it. People have heard a good set-up from them can very possibly walk away, like Stereophile's Wes Philips, feeling that "everything else is noise." If that happens then you are more willing to accept the old school and often less convenient things that Audio Note does. From the outside looking it is a weird labyrinth of a stupefying number of choices.

Take value - When I look at a $2500 loudspeaker like the AN K/Lx and I see hey there are three other versions of this speaker and I can upgrade my speaker later if I wish - that gives me option. I only need 7 watts - that gives me choices. I can buy the speaker in 20 wood finishes or over 100 paint choices - well that gives me choices.

Virtually all other manufacturers selling even $10,000 loudspeakers give you ONE option for the speaker - give you 3-5 finish options which usually look by the numbers and SAFE. It's all by the numbers. meanwhile at Audio Note if I want to order my Audio Note amplifier in Rose Gold or Fire Engine Red or deep purple and have the speakers to match - no problem.

If I want to order the entry level I-zero but I want a special capacitor - no problem.

And for the well heeled - you can have a custom made from the ground up amplifier based on that rare tube you own. No one else does that. And they use the best available parts that exist in audio. So people are willing to put up with some issues. Some are not - if you go to a dealer and want to walk out of the store with a Spendor or B&W the dealers have them in stock. With Audio Note - - umm give us your money now and wait 3 months. It's up to you.

I don't see too many dealers listing their prices outside of website dealers like Music Direct.

 

I can find prices for a multitude of models from all these brands with a simple Google search.

 

More often than not, they might have one demo pair of a specific model in stock. This even goes for B&Ws at Best Buy Magnolia stores. I recall a recent thread where a guy had to wait two months for a pair of standard-finish Harbeths.

 

This thread has turned into a jousting match of "To AN" vs. "Not to AN". A few lances broken, but no surrenders so far.

 

I'm a MusicDirect shopper, you've just signed my AN exile warrant...

But, I will be at the NY Audio Show this November, and now, that I'm more seasoned in this hobby, I know what to listen to. I promise to stop by AN room and listen carefully.

 

I don't recall seeing pre-owned ANs for sale any more than any other brand, but I don't really search for them. I imagine it's hard to quench the upgrade bug once you fall into the AN eco-system, because unless your system is well into six figures, there's always another step up. I suspect they make a lot of dough off the insecure customers who must own the "best."

 

That is a fair point but over the years I have seen a lot of crap go down - the room you were supposed to get you didn't get - the shipping company broke your amp so you borrow one from a competitor - I must say these guys are quite nice to each other.

You can't, contrary to popular belief, fix all problems in a room with some glorified foam. Warren Jarret brought his own corners to a show and he was awarded best sound of show - one guy named the oldshool who followed me around on forums and ripped into Audio Note over and over - it suck blah blah - you're a shill blah blah - heard Warren's room and declared it one fo the best sounding systems he ever heard and the best of the show. He is similar to the posters on this board who get on my ass. But perhaps down the line they will hear it well setup well.

A corner speaker relies on the walls and if they are terrible there is only so much you can do. you can put them free standing they will still sound good but it's like putting the K-horn in the middle of a room and expecting miracles.

Just remember though that shows were originally meant for dealers - manufacturers hosted the rooms to attract dealers to pick up their product lines - they were not about showing the general public. Now you have a dealer setting up their rooms not the manufacturer.

 

Or they make a lot of money and want to make improvements to their system. You know like poorer audiophiles who also like to spend more to upgrade their systems.

I have to say when you talk about value and you think Spendor or the like has more - I bought my AN J/Spe in 2003 for $2500 brand new and sold it 13 years later for $2900+. If I bought a Spendor for $2500 in 2003 I'd be lucky to get $700. I see one having value and the other not so much. regardless of any one opinion - the market spoke.

As some on this forum know I have had 4 Line Magnetic products - I still have three. But there is a thing in upper end audio called pride of ownership. And that factors into the second hand market. These are all fine products but have next to zero pride of ownership. There is nothing original or special about any of their designs - at best they are Western Electric ripoffs. The parts quality is middling and with the Chinese you never know if you are actually getting the real part or not. And the greater world market knows this which is why their resale value is next to nonexistent. Yes they sound good no question but for the same $7500 one could buy an Audio Note Meishu 300B amp in base level and in 10 years it will be a desirable product - the LM 219IA? Well hell they don't even make the thing anymore and I managed to get a measly $2,000 CANADIAN (what $1,400 US for it).

My dad used to say that "Most people know the price of everything and value of nothing" People want real parts high quality parts from people who have degrees in engineering and know how to do original design work into the overall amp and the parts quality inside - that has value to people and therefore holds value.

 

If you do listen carefully, long enough, with familiar tracks, I bet you will find at least one area in which your current system(s) performs a little better. The truly seasoned listeners know there is no such thing as a perfect system.

If AN was really so superior to everything else out there, it's what everyone would aspire to own or dream of owning. But as is often the case in this hobby, the hype is just that - hype. I'm not saying the brand is no good, just that it's not immune to the fact that all systems have weaknesses and no two people hear exactly alike. AN doesn't win Best of Show at every show, and it's not for lack of trying. It's because sometimes there are other systems that a greater number of listeners preferred. Even if they won Best of Show 9 times out of 10, there would still be some who prefer other brands. That's the reality despite what RA would like us all to believe with the ceaseless rhetoric.

It seems like you're happy with your current setup and that's all that really matters.

 

Your anecdote is meaningless to me as I will never sell my Spendors. And I've noted what used AN speakers sell for - your example is not typical.

In contrast to AN, when one buys a Spendor, they get the best materials and performance the company produces for a given size and timbre preference (A-series vs Classic vs D-Series). Their speakers are priced according to build difficulty, number of drivers and distribution cost. There is no nickel and diming customers for pitiful upgrades like silver-clad wiring until the price reaches stratospheric levels. Every Spendor uses the same tweeter, gets magnesium driver baskets, the best cone material they use at the time, gold-plated crossover boards, their best caps, Van Den Hul wiring and flawless veneers. One simply buys the model that best suits their room and timbre preference. You could argue that practice makes their $20K model a poor value or that it makes their least expensive model a good value. I find it's the latter because on balance, many of their models compete with speakers that cost significantly more IME.

Regardless, the Spendor buyer isn't left wondering if they should've sprung for that wire upgrade named after the manufacturer's favorite pole dancer.

 

Well said!