Separates vs. Integrated (RR2160 or Used Parsound HINTO) - Budget Edition

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Fish17, May 16, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. The Pinhead

    The Pinhead KING OF BOOM AND SIZZLE IN HELL

    What made you lean towards the Emotiva then ? (not judging here). I'd buy the Outlaw tomorrow morning if it were sold down here.
     
    dreamingtree1855 likes this.
  2. okc_craft

    okc_craft It All Matters

    Location:
    Okc
    Those are supposed to be great. If you ever decided to add a sub, which some folks running the Q150 do, the 2125 have a high pass filter at 20 HZ and 40 HZ. You may or may not use that, I personally don’t, but my Rogers probably go a little deeper than the KEF.

    I would suspect a pretty great sound stage with a properly setup pair of Q150, 2125, and the Saga S. It would definitely be something I would not mind hearing.
     
    Rick58 likes this.
  3. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    OMG, so many choices ... seems like the question may come down to "Do you want to spend more now or later?" :D IOW, how much can you get away with spending now? Birthday, future Christmas present $$$ added in of course! That's how I do things.

    My spending grew over the decades ... I got to spend $100 on a Dynaco SCA-35 integrated amp (60's vintage, killer sonics for the money) around 1995. Then upgrades and doodads were initially $50 here and there for tubes, upgrade parts. Then went to $100 per occurrence. When we had a bit more cash, that seemed to jump to $500 per. I bought the Triangle Titus 202 speakers around that time (2002), then the Analysis Plus Oval 9 cables. Then jumped to about $1200-$1500 (Audio Analogue Puccini SE integrated amp, Cambridge 840C CD Player, Bottlehead Paramount 300B SET amp kits) ... Then I splurged on the C220 ($2805 out the door, dealer demo unit on 'we pay tax' weekend). Still the most I've ever spent at once.

    I was gonna do all the combinations you're considering, but it's too much ...! I don't think you'd go wrong with ANY of them, just a question of ... (see above). :D

    Somewhere around $1800 (less if you're lucky and can find one) there's the used Parasound Halo Integrated ... which seemingly by all evaluations a KILLER integrated amp. Edit: Seems like this is hovering near the most expensive Schitt/Parasound amp combo (Freya+ and Parasound 2250 v2 or used A23) ...

    I think you're getting a good handle on what's important to you, features, and pricing. Seems like these combos will sound excellent by any measure, it's a matter of 'degree' which of course seems to always = $$$.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
  4. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    Not that it's a bad idea, but using A+B inputs can have some issues, I think. The KEFs may dip into the 4 ohm range in the bass? then the 'B' speakers would have to be high impedance which is hard to know unless there are measurements.

    Hmmmmm ... Model Q150 Bookshelf Speaker Nominal Impedance 8Ω (min. 3.7Ω) ... yeah ... even with the 2250 this seems a little iffy unless you keep things at a lowish volume, IF you want to run both sets of speakers at the same time.

    Seems like there's a lot of good powered bluetooth or other speakers these days, should work great for outdoor use?

    Man, I donno ... but if sonics are the most important, seems like the Freya and a used A23 would be hard to beat, IF you can find an A23 for around $700 (which DOES seem to be the 'going rate'), you'd be in the $1300 to $1600 range depending on if you wanted to experiment with tubes or not (and of course you know MY preference !!!). Good luck and happy listening !!!!

    PS: Balanced cables need not break the bank ... https://www.amazon.com/Mogami-Micro...Male-Connectors/dp/B0002E1G7K/ref=sr_1_2_sspa are similar to what I have in my system (I go from balanced preamp outs to the KRK ERGO which has balanced 'TRS' type connectors, which are 1/4" jacks). These sound great in my system ...
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
    bever70 likes this.
  5. Daring

    Daring My quest to marry Stevie Nicks has failed

    Location:
    Grove Ok
    I had never had separates before and when I called to talk and ask some questions the guy I spoke with was very knowledgeable. They have a 30 day in home trial period as well.
     
    The Pinhead likes this.
  6. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    I combine my saga with an A23 :righton:.
    When I bought the A23, I did a home demo before with a new classic 2125 (previous version), this was before I had the Saga as a preamp. My impressions were that the 2125 sounded big and bold, but in the end I preferred the sound of the A23, a bit more 'refined' with better soundstage.

    I see you are also considering a sub. On that 'sub'ject, it's not always necessary to have sub outs or to have a 2nd output on your preamp to run them rca-wise. REL and some other subwoofer brands prefer to be connected hi-level, they use speaker connections and you don't need a/b speaker connections either. They just hook up to your speaker connections on the amp (google Rel speakon connection). I have one setup this way with Saga/A23.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  7. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I do run a sub, again budget but solid, Pioneer 8MK2.

    If I did go the 2125 route I would consider using the High Freq pass.
     
  8. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Thanks for noticing this! I wouldn't plan on running A/B together.

    Sonics are definitely most important so your right a used A23 and a Freya+ with balanced cables would achieve that. I also like that the A23 comes in silver so it would match the Freya+.

    Only problem with this route is shipment for the Freya+ is a month out. I just missed out a used Freya+ for $700, I even offered $750 but he already had a buyer.
     
  9. okc_craft

    okc_craft It All Matters

    Location:
    Okc
    I have read others here and elsewhere comment that the main benefit of a balanced connection would be for longer cable runs. I personally don’t have any experience with this, but I am sure others will weigh in.

    If you can stretch for the A23 you should definitely pick one up used. I have no doubt you will be well served with that and whatever preamp you decide to go with.
     
  10. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    @Fish17 just checking if you saw my post above with regards to A23/Saga (and 2125), as maybe you have missed it ?
     
  11. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I did thank you! If I’m going to get the a23 which is my preference I’m going to get a preamp that supports balanced outputs like the Freya +.

    I haven’t had a chance to look into the sub connections you suggested. I was planing on using the extra out from the preamp and use the rca connections on my sub.
     
    bever70 likes this.
  12. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    What RCA cable would you recommend for the pre-amp out to my subwoofer? I was looking at blue jean cables, i had a subwoofer cable from them but the RCA cables are $70+!
     
  13. gguy

    gguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wildomar, CA
    If not blue jean, monoprice will work.
     
  14. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    I'm not THAT obsessive about cables, altho I've tried several ... no super $$$ ones except the Oval 9 speaker cables (were $400 for a 12' pair at the time, many years ago). THOSE did make a big difference in sonics.

    I just use basic ones for sub connections ... like gguy said, monoprice (generic) would probably be OK. https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Stereo-Theater-Consoles-Systems/dp/B00B2HOY4S maybe? At some point maybe try some more expensive ones but for now ...
     
  15. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    What do I need to look for a certain ohm resistance?
     
  16. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    I don't think there's any issues WRT resistance when choosing RCA cables. Any decent ones will have very low resistance themselves.
     
  17. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I got a used Parasound A23 for $625 shipped!

    Now I just need to decide if I'm going to wait for the Freya + to come back in stock a month from now or go with the Freya S now. I'm leaning towards the tubes based on the really good review from Darko, Guttenberg & Thomas & Friends.

    Audio Science’s amirm had a good review of the Freya S, very measurement focused. Who know's maybe someone will have one for sale used in the meantime.

    I've also started getting my cables, after some research on XLR cables (Anyone compare Mogami Gold and Canare Star Quad XLR-Balanced cables? ) great read if you are bored. I found some affordable Mogami 2549 XLR cables with great Neutrik gold connectors from a seller on eBay, I added a comment with a link in that other forum if anyone is interested.

    Just need to figure out what cables to get for my sub. I'm leaning towards Blue Jean Cables LC-1's, unless I can find some Canary LV-77S cables for cheaper. I’m concerned the monoprice or cheaper cables will cause humming in my sub. Or I'm drinking Blue Jean Cable's koolaide lol!!

    I already experience this with my phono preamp could be the amp but I wonder if its the cable. One experiment I want to try is to see if a better cable eliminates the hum there as well.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
    bever70 and Rick58 like this.
  18. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    WOW !!! Congrats on a nice score. Seems like a great foundation for a system (with Freya S or +). I don't think you can go wrong with any of the remaining choices, they'll all sound great.

    With these as an EXCELLENT base, you'll most likely be hearing many things you couldn't hear before ... give it all a while, your ears/system will be "breaking in". Then more fun will ensue as you think about tubes, a different phono pre, a new cart, and on and on.

    Welcome to audiophilia! :D
     
  19. bever70

    bever70 Let No-one Live Rent Free in Your Head!

    Location:
    Belgium
    Nice ! Now go for the tubes would be my advice :D.
     
  20. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    Huh! I learned something interesting (to me anyway). The 'buffer' in the Freya + is all solid state, I thought it was a JFET differential amp followed by a TUBE stage (still with 'unity' gain) ...

    Freya + :
    Compound Differential Buffer

    Gain: 1 (0dB)
    Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.2db, 3Hz-500KHz, -3dB
    THD: <0.004%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS
    IMD: <0.0055%, CCIR
    SNR: >120db, A-weighted, referenced to 2V RMS
    Output Impedance: 75 ohms SE, 600 ohms balanced
    Topology: JFET differential amplifier compound pair with equalized-gm followers (I thought this meant one pair of the tubes, but noooooo ...)

    Tube Gain
    Gain: 4 (12dB)
    Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.2db, 3Hz-200KHz, -3dB
    THD: <0.01%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS
    IMD: <0.01%, CCIR
    SNR: >115db, A-weighted, referenced to 2V RMS
    Output Impedance: 75 ohms SE, 600 ohms balanced
    Topology: differential triode input with semi-circlotron follower stage (so this is BOTH pairs of tubes, apparently the 'right' pair is the input and the 'left' pair the 'follower' stage (whatever that means))


    Freya S:
    Nexus Differential Stage
    (don't know what this means, it may be Schitt's design or a reference to a particular general circuit design ... but they seem to think it's hot schitt (sorry! couldn't resist!))

    Gain: 1 (0dB)
    Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.1db, 3Hz-500KHz, -3dB
    THD: <0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 2V RMS
    IMD: <0.001%, CCIR
    SNR: >115db, A-weighted, referenced to 2V RMS
    Output Impedance: 75 ohms SE, 600 ohms balanced

    Gain: 4 (12dB)
    Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.1db, 3Hz-200KHz, -3dB
    THD: <0.002%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 2V RMS
    IMD: <0.002%, CCIR
    SNR: >110db, A-weighted, referenced to 2V RMS (funny how the THD/IMD is indeed lower than with the tubes in-circuit but the SNR is worse with the all-SS circuits. Still, >110dB SNR is amazing, I imagine not likely to be heard as 'noisy'.)
    Output Impedance: 75 ohms SE, 600 ohms balanced

    Topology: Nexus™ topology; current feedback with nested differential stages

    So the two actually use different circuit designs even for the SS buffer sections ... I'm not a huge measurements geek, but all of these seem like excellent performance values. One would probably have to do a side-by-side comparison over lots of material and conditions to tell the difference(s) between the two preamps (as some folks have done).

    Again, kudos! and etc. on spending the most money possible! (MSRP, then finding bargains makes it sweeter.) It never seems to be a mistake ... :) as far as sound quality is concerned, and hopefully it'll give 'that' much more pleasure as you listen for the next many years to come. Amortized over 3 years, a $1000 difference is <$1/day, and the extra pleasure received seems to make it a worthwhile investment if you use the system often.
     
  21. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Thanks, I'm very excited! I plan on waiting for the tube Freya+.

    I think my next upgrade would probably be speakers perhaps the LS50's then probably a different phono pre however I'm curious if different cables will fix the hum issue.
     
    Rick58 likes this.
  22. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Thanks Rick! I have no idea what any of that means lol. It sounds like your tempted or at least impressed by this Freya+ as well. Plus now that I got a A23 with balanced connections I'm definetly going with a Freya.

    I'm not a huge measurements guy either but if it's recommended by Audio Science’s amirm than I'm sure the measurements are good, granted this was for the Freya S.

    I'm already onboard with the Freya+ and tubes based on Darko's, Guttenberg and Thomas & Friends reviews. Plus the tubes just look cool!

    Only problem is I have to wait a month for it be ready to ship.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
  23. IRG

    IRG Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    I like the idea of the Freya+ and a Parasound power amp. The NewClassic 2250 v2 seems like a lot of amp for the money, doesn't have the balanced outs that the Freya can use. The A23+ seems like a great amp too, and has balanced outs. I'd also consider the Rogue Audio RP-1, but that's a significant upgrade over the Schiit and is an all tube preamp, with a good phone stage. Lots to consider...and lots to research. Still leaning towards a good integrated amp though, Yamaha A-s2200 perhaps.
     
  24. Fish17

    Fish17 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    The RP-1 doesn’t have any balanced inputs or outputs so no go for me.

    When I was looking at the integrated route it was between the Outlaw 2160 and the HINTO. You can find a used HINTO for 1.4k.

    Integrateds are convenient but I still feel separates are the way to go, it’s easier to upgrade. If I want a better DAC I can just buy a new streamer or DAC. If I want a better phono stage I can get a separate phono stage. It gives you the flexibility to upgrade what you want without paying extra for components you don’t need.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
    bever70 likes this.
  25. Rick58

    Rick58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eagle, ID, USA
    Sounds like a great plan and choice!

    Hum issue ??? The LS50s do seem excellent, likely an upgrade over your present KEFs? Not certain but more $$$ usually = better sonics. May have a different 'balance' and presentation though. Seems like the A23 should drive about anything reasonable to decent levels, maybe not speakers that are very low efficiency to jet-engine concert levels though. Seems like the KEFs are decently efficient though and the A23 will drive them to about any sane level.

    Agree completely on all that! I'm not sure what the specs/circuit designs really mean either! No, I have the Parasound P 7 preamp, it's staying. I do lust after an A21, probably will set up with my Monitor Audio Silver 8 speakers. I currently use them with a Marantz AVR in a surround setup, with the P 7, 300B tube amps, and Triangle Titus speakers in a stereo-only arrangement. The P 7 sounds ALMOST as organic as my old McIntosh C220 preamp, and has all the bells and whistles I want. I sold the C220 years ago to help finance my daughter's wedding, I hadn't been using the system much ... a couple years later I bought the P 7 to 'replace' it and have no regrets. I currently get the tube magic/tweaking from the Bottlehead Paramount 300B SET amps, which I've upgraded caps and swapped tubes in.

    Confession: None of the above is even set up now ... it's in boxes etc. at our new house in Idaho ... awaiting me to set things up again. We're in a multi-year process of me working in CA for a few more years ... going to ID and working from there (and visiting otherwise, holidays, etc.) as I'm able. Trying to shift things that way but it's difficult. I miss the systems!

    I'm VERY excited for you though. Seems like this system 'even' with the 150s should give all the audiophile goodies ...

    PS: Hmmmm ... not to steer you away from KEFs, but Monitor Audio Silver 8 loudspeaker is why I bought them. He used a Marantz AV preamp, I have a mid-high level AVR instead. I bet they'd sound terrific driven by an A21 (or A23!).

    PPS: I got all my stuff thru Crutchfield, the AVR was on closeout, Silver 8s 'scratch and dent' (and yes, they were), P 7 was factory refurb thru Audio Advisor ... the Triangle Tituses were bought new and have served me very well since 2002. I rebuilt the tweeter high pass filter with premium parts, well worth the $100 or so I spent on that. I think one can build up a premium system without breaking the bank TOO much (or at least making it a little softer hit).
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
    Fish17 likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine