Sgt Pepper Not Voted Best Album Shock!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by richierichie, Aug 19, 2017.

  1. AFOS

    AFOS Forum Resident

    Noticed that ... love The Beatles and a lot of the albums listed but there are tons of great 80's 90's albums that are better than most of them. Smiths Radiohead Blur etc etc. Seems like most here stopped listening to new music in 1977.

    Also Exile ahead of Pepper is like a crudely carved lump of rock ahead of a sculpture by Michelangelo ;)
  2. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    New York
    Your post raises the question to what extent an album of music should “flow” and be judged accordingly; that improved flow is a significant metric for judging an album’s value. And more precisely that a song which within an album is perceived as interrupting such flow is an offending presence. And judged accordingly.

    I am not saying that flow has no value. But one can overrate flow. After all the word album is meant to be a collection; in literary applications “anthology” is synonymous. An anthology is by definition not a unified, single work like a novel with distinct chapters that address aspects of the story, but all together serving the overall story that makes up the novel. Anthologies by comparison bring together different pieces by the author. These may share common, perhaps even unifying, themes. But they do not hold together as a single story.

    Peppers is very interesting particularly in the history of rock music because of the strong suggestion that it does have a unifying element, even if that is not “a story.” McCartney famously presented this concept to the rest of the group. But however much there are elements that unify the album, and to me they are part of its charm, it remains primarily a collection of songs. Other than the obvious connection between the opener and its reprise it travels through a rather wide variety of types of songs.

    Within You Without You as such should not be understood as violating the implied view of Peppers as a unified “concept” album. Objectively speaking the only obvious way that it differs from the rest of the album is the influence of Indian music. But is that enough to make it so far afield of the rest? One can make the argument of a disrupting flow about a number of songs, including She’s Leaving Home, Mr. Kite and 64, and that is not a complete list. I have seen others attempt to make that argument about other songs on it over the years.

    For myself I long ago came to defer to the list of what made their way onto Peppers, and how Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane are on MMT and not this one. Within You is for me part of its charm, and the Beatles’ interest in Indian music is not inappropriately represented in the collection that makes it up. I don’t think it is so different from the rest as to interrupt the flow.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  3. Clonesteak

    Clonesteak Forum Resident

    Kalamazoo, MI
    Definitely my favorite Beatles album and favorite album of all time.
    Bingo Bongo likes this.
  4. psychtrailmix

    psychtrailmix Forum Resident

    Philadelphia, PA
    Any fan of good music should disregard a magazine that has featured Kim Kardashian on the front cover. RS sold their soul long ago, they're about as relevant when it comes to music as MTV at this point.
    Chemguy and Clonesteak like this.
  5. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    New York
    I listen primarily to rock and related genres like blues. But I also love classical, jazz, folk and country. I don't find it particularly illuminating or useful to try and make direct comparisons between, say, Beethoven's 9th and Davis's Kind of Blue.

    Some time ago I came to the view that, whether by time period or genres within rock, it was also not helpful to directly compare music from categories that at some point become "too different". I know for example there are people who love both classic rock and hip hop. Do they really sit around rating their favorites from both those categories against each other?

    It's probably more useful to do so within categories, whether time periods (however it may appear to be arbitrary) or genres within rock. This is not entirely arbitrary, in my opinion. But that's a different discussion. For myself I think at some point in the early 80's different production techniques, the residual effect of disco and early electronica changed the music so much that direct comparisons became inapt.

    The other problem is I think what was and is popular at some point became more splintered than it was in the sixties and most of the seventies. There seems to be less consensus about say within the 90's was "the best", depending on which genre(s) appealed to you.

    In other words I don't think it is simply that somewhere near MOST here literally stopped listening to new music after 1977. I know I didn't stop.
  6. redsock

    redsock Writer, reader, grouch.

    Yeah, since like 1975.
  7. tinnox

    tinnox Forum Resident

    I feel Led Zeppelin Physical Graffiti should be in the top 50
    yarbles likes this.
  8. psychtrailmix

    psychtrailmix Forum Resident

    Philadelphia, PA
    I enjoy this thread, the people complaining need to get a life and/or not read the thread :) "top" lists are always to be taken with a grain of salt really.. They can be enjoyable to browse, but different albums mean different things to different people. Personally, I think Sgt. Pepper is a bit overrated, although a great record. I think Love - Forever Changes is leaps and bounds above it, and I spin FC WAY more than I've ever spun Sgt. Pepper... I'm sure someone else's opinion would be that Forever Changes is overrated... that's just the way it goes.
  9. Bullis

    Bullis Forum Resident

    Where Kanye, ice t and two live crew
  10. yarbles

    yarbles Too sick to pray

    You would have thought so, wouldn't you? But not here. It's not obvious enough.
  11. Tristero

    Tristero Forum Resident

    Wow, an endorsement for Led Zeppelin. That's not exactly a bold, go-against-the-grain choice on a classic rock board. Weren't you the one mocking the narrow minded old farts for being too set in their ways? Physician, heal thyself.
  12. walrus

    walrus Forum Resident

    Nashville, TN

    I don't consider Pepper a 'concept' album at all, really. But I think sonically and stylistically, something i'd pick as 'greatest album of all time' should sound like all the songs belong together, and be totally free of filler. Alternatively, you have something like Revolver, where almost every song sounds disconnected from the one that came before and afterwards, which is incredibly difficult to pull off into a cohesive album, but then again, it was peak Beatles.

    So, it's not a concept album, so "Within You" isn't violating anything. It just doesn't belong there, either really as a 'Beatles' tune or amidst the incredibly complex melodicism of the rest of the record. Not really sure the Beatles as a whole shared anything beyond a passing interest in Indian music, it was just George, and I'm convinced that song is only on the record because "Only A Northern Song" was somehow an even worse fit. You're right that Pepper is just a "collection of songs," but "Within You" barely qualifies as one, in a traditional Beatles sense. I mean, it is what it is, and if it'd come out on a side project or something, it'd be an interesting curiosity, but for me it (and "Sixty-Four") keeps Pepper from being a perfect album.
  13. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    New York
    Well, as I perhaps did not make clear enough, I don't think Peppers is devoid of any "concept" elements or themes. But your response makes clear we are not talking about that, and you and I agree it should me accepted for the most part as a collection of songs. But not "just" a collection. I said primarily.

    That being the case, the extent to which Within You "just" doesn't fit is the question. You posit an additional consideration in the reference to songs having "a traditional Beatles sense." As in Tomorrow Never Knows? Or on Peppers itself, are Mr. Kite and A Day in the Life traditional Beatles songs? I think your own reference to Indian music and whether the others were on board with that is more the kind of consideration that you find troubling. I don't think that is for myself enough to take it down several notches in a best album contest context, but I think that is what you are doing.

    That's fine for yourself, and after all it is precisely my view that that awful kiddie tune Yellow Submarine is what takes Revolver down so far for me (that and finding Get You Into My Life tedious). In other words I don't think it's about some vague concept of "flow" so much as that you don't think Within You's Indian music is a good fit. That's fine with me. I "just" do not agree.
  14. richierichie

    richierichie Forum Resident Thread Starter

    You guys commenting on this thread really need to take a look at the thread, link below, which is currently running. I will accept votes up until I get to the last post. I am currently collating all the votes and hope to post the results and some analysis some time next week.

    Top Album Of All Time Poll.
  15. walrus

    walrus Forum Resident

    Nashville, TN
    "Mr. Kite" has both a) melody and b) multiple Beatles participating. It's not a slag on Indian music, it's just that there isn't much to the composition musically, and putting it next to things like "Mr. Kite" and "She's Leaving Home" is just downright cruel. If Harrison had had "The Inner Light" at the time, I think it would've bridged the gap much more effectively. It's obvious George was in a serious writing slump between his Revolver compositions and the stuff he'd write in early 1968.

    (And I agree "Yellow Submarine" is the weakest thing on Revolver...the only thing that saves it is Ringo's charm, and that it sounds like everyone was at least having fun making it)
    Hardy Melville likes this.
  16. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    New York
    Fair enough. While I don't share your antipathy for Within You, it is not unfair to say George had some drop off after Revolver. (Perhaps this had to do with accumulated issues/unhappiness that had preceded them stopping touring? Stopping touring itself?) But I do count myself as a big fan of It's All Too Much, and somewhat less so of Northern Song. So I don't think the down period lasted that far, meaning early 68. I would agree Northern Song is not a good fit for Peppers, and in general I am happy with the Peppers song list. But substituting Too Much for Within You? Might not have been the worst move in the world.

    Anyway, thanks for the nice discussion.
  17. walrus

    walrus Forum Resident

    Nashville, TN
    I do like "It's All Too Much" quite a bit. Although I think part of its charm is that it's a fun experiment on an album no one listens to very often, so no one ever really got tired of it. And I say this as a guy who loves so many George songs... there was nothing George wrote during 1967 that would've truly belonged on Pepper.
  18. samthesham

    samthesham Forum Resident

    Moorhead MN
    [QUOTE="richierichie, post: 17032003, member: 39710In her tent...Sgt. Pepper just scraped into the Top 10! That was the only eyebrow raising result of the poll that wasn`t really a poll. With the permission of @bherbert, who started the Top 5 thread I suggested and announced that I would collate the first top 5 nominated by each poster into a poll. This was about 2/3 into the thread.

    Right to the poll results;
    Fortunately I got exactly 50 albums by making the cut off point at 4 votes. The top 6 were only split by 5 votes, as you can see the voting was really close and it made it very entertaining for me tallying up the votes. Pet Sounds was 4 votes in front at one stage! The Beatles (as expected) have 4 albums in the top 10, a total of 6 in the top twenty. Bob Dylan has 3 albums in the top ten, The Beach Boys, The Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd and The Who make up the rest.

    I am not going to scrutinize the results because this was just a fun thing taken on by me as practice for a bigger poll to take place when I return from my holiday. This will start in September. The reason? Because I enjoy these things and because many people asked/said why only 5 albums? And there were many. Hmm, I thought why not and so you will be asked for your 20 favourite albums of all time, yes Twenty! I think this will make for more interesting results. Yes the top 10 may remain the same, I think there may be some shocks. Those who dislike this kind of thing can start a thread to moan about it. LOL richie.

    The scoring for the poll below was 1 point for each album nominated. Over 650 albums were nominated by over 230 voters. I intend to make the scoring for the bigger poll the same as this poll but I am open to alternative suggestions, any complicated methods will be ignored!

    So here are the results,number of votes each album received (in brackets), any mistakes are intentional! As I have said I am not going to perlustrate the results. I will do that for the bigger poll, other than to say critics may point out that the same OLD albums win every time. I say why not? Great Albums will always be Great Albums. Your views are welcome.

    1) Revolver - The Beatles (22)
    2) Abbey Road - The Beatles (21)
    3) Pet Sounds - The Beach Boys (20)
    4) Dark Side Of The Moon - Pink Floyd (19)
    5) Exile On Main Street - The Rolling Stones (18)
    6) The White Album - The Beatles (17)
    7) Who`s Next - The Who (15)
    8) Blood On The Tracks - Bob Dylan (12)
    9) Blonde On Blonde - Bob Dylan (10)
    Highway 61 Revisited - Bob Dylan (10)
    Sgt. Pepper`s Lonely Hearts Club Band - The Beatles (10)
    12) Close To The Edge - Yes (9),
    Kind Of Blue - Miles Davis (9),
    Led Zeppelin IV - Led Zeppelin (9),
    London Calling _ The Clash (9),
    Quadrophenia - The Who (9),
    Rubber Soul - The Beatles (9)
    18) A Hard Day`s Night - The Beatles (8)
    Forever Changes - Love (8)
    Sticky Fingers - The Rolling Stones (8)
    21) The Wall - Pink Floyd (7)
    22) LA Woman _ Doors (6)
    Let It Bleed - Rolling Stones (6)
    Relayer - Yes (6)
    Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd (6)
    26) Born To Run - Bruce Springsteen (5)
    Darkness On The Edge Of Town - Bruce Springsteen (5)
    Layla and other assorted love songs - Derek & the Dominoes (5)
    Marquee Moon - Television (5)
    Nevermind - Nirvana (5)
    Plastic Ono Band - John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band (5)
    What`s Going On - Marvin Gaye (5)
    33) All Things Must Pass - George Harrison (4)
    American Beauty - Grateful Dead (4)
    Astral Weeks - Van Morrison (4)
    Atom Heart Mother - Pink Floyd (4)
    Crime Of The Century _ Supertramp (4)
    Déjà Vu - Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young (4)
    Disintegration - The Cure (4)
    Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix (4)
    Horses - Patti Smith (4)
    Hunky Dory - David Bowie (4)
    Led Zeppelin II - Led Zeppelin (4)
    Live At Leeds - The Who (4)
    Piper At The Gatesd Of Dawn - Pink Floyd (4)
    Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones - The Monkees (4)
    Queen II - Queen (4)
    Rust Never Sleeps - Neil Young (4)
    Thick As A Brick - Jethro Tull (4)
    The Velvet Underground & Nico - The Velvet Underground & Nico (4)[/QUOTE]
    Can't believe no Hendrix AYE? or Rod Stewart EPTAS or Doors debut.Inherent blasphemy!
  19. Yovra

    Yovra Forum Enthusiast

    It may have been said before; every “Greatest Album Ever” poll is often nothing more or less than a opinion poll in a certain peer group. There have been times/polls when Radiohead’s OK Computer might have been in the top three, maybe there wouldn’t be any Beatles album in the top 5 if this poll was done in 1977. In the Netherlands in the week between Christmas and New Year we’ve been bombarded with the “Top 2000 of all time” which is nothing more or less than a poll between listeners to a certain MOR radio Channel. And, as could have been expected it’s full of stadium-rock, Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Deep Purple’s Child in Time and almost every year it’s topped by Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody. The highest black artist is Otis Redding at 78th, the highest Stevie Wonder is 508th.... it’s a mess of a list.
    And ever since this “Top 2000”-mess and reading all these ‘best ever’ lists In music magazines I stopped caring about it.
  20. SickAgain

    SickAgain Active Member

    South Jersey
    This site should be renamed Classic Rock
    tinnox and Yovra like this.
  21. troggy

    troggy Papa-Oom-Mow-Mow

    southern Illinois
    Not to mention the sample size of this poll is way too small to make it very meaningful. Sure, the albums at the top would have done well regardless but when you have 18 albums tied for 33rd place, with just four votes each, the poll becomes much more about who happened to vote than anything else.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
    Yovra likes this.
  22. notgoblin

    notgoblin Habitual Linestepper - not dancer

    Happy to see Revolver in it's deserved position, love it so.
  23. BryanA-HTX

    BryanA-HTX Crazy Doctor

    Houston, TX
    Only noteworthy thing they did that still holds up :hide:
  24. DRM

    DRM Forum Resident

    There was one album that received major attention upon the arrival of its 50th Anniversary.

    It wasn't Revolver.

    The National News Media, although sometimes clueless, even celebrated it.

    No album has displaced it.

  25. dumangl

    dumangl Forum Resident

    What surprises me is that Sgt. Pepper was ever voted best album. To me it's not even the best Beatles album.

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