Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (Marvel Cinematic Universe)

Whoopsi!

 

Right.

 

Downvote brigades and review bombing are part of the problem (saying something is bad isn't trolling.) I think a good chunk of the disparity these days comes from industry pressure. The math is is simple, if you trash a film that cost two hundred million dollars to make, your outlet looses access. You don't get exclusive media interviews. You don't get invited to premiers. This all happened before, but with the glut of media outlets these days, it's even more important to have access, since you, as a media outlet, are very replicable.

The first time I noticed this was with a Wrinkle in Time. That was a *bad* movie. Objectively bad. Huge plot holes, mediocre acting, nonsensical cinematography and plain old bad storytelling. There are glimpses of a well made film in there - an interesting shot here and some decent acting there. It's all wrapped in a nonsensical plot where things just seem to happen for no reason. It managed to score 42% on Rotten Tomatoes for critics, while the audience gave it 27%. I'm dumbfounded how it managed a 42% from critics.

A comparison could be made to Artemis Fowl, an even worse book adaptation by Disney. It scored an 8% from critics on Rotten Tomatoes, and deservedly so. However, it was not a *theatrical release* so, I think, affecting box office receipts was not a factor in reviewing the film.

 

Well, agree to disagree - 42% critic score on RT is fairly abysmal to me, literally beyond "rotten", so I don't see that's any good example - it implies a lot of negative reviews, doesn't it. I would need to see specific examples where media outlets gave something a bad review and then "lost access", I assume they would go public with that and complain, having nothing further to lose. Because if they don't go public that this practice exists, how do you know it does, other than your assumption? If we go through particularly negative reviews of Wrinkle In Time, or any other major film really, should we assume that those media outlets "lost access" afterwards?

 

One purpose of criticism is to recommend movies to the public. How much good is a critic if every movie he thumbs down is something audiences like, and every movie he thumbs up is something they don't like? I understand some audiences are biased against a whole form of movie, like, say, documentaries or foreign-language films. But the most useful critic is one who aligns more or less with the taste of the audience who is interested in going to see the type of film he's reviewing.

Yes, criticism is useful as a literary exercise on its own, but that's mainly when people are opening up the article and actually reading it. A review aggregator should be focused on giving reliable recommendations to the audience, because the audience can hardly drill down into that score and make sense of it. The audience rating doesn't exist until the audiences see the movie. The critics are there to recommend to the audience if they should see the movie. So I would say that, yes, a useful, well-done review aggregator should have an algorithm that actually predicts the future audience score. That would make it a more valuable tool to its readers. And if the algorithm could actually take in data on the reader and tailor its prediction to them, that would be an even better tool. The aggregator probably needs a better selection of input from critics as well as modifiers in its algorithm to get the best movie rating.

Forgive me for not turning movie criticism into a hard science. Everything here is in the realm of opinion. I can't turn opinions into facts like water into wine. All discussion of the quality of movies is based on opinions. I don't have the power to conduct a poll on these movies. I know what I've read and I believe I have a good sense of the public sentiment where I've mentioned it.

That's up to you to decide. IMDB scores rank Black Panther #14 among MCU movies. There was no major criticism of it, no backlash against it, no campaign against it. Fans just didn't think it was the greatest quality movie they ever did. Rotten Tomatoes has it as the #1 MCU movie. There is no better explanation for that discrepancy in my mind than that critics and the media in general judged it on social, cultural or political factors, which factored into their reviews in addition to whether or not the movie had entertainment value. Other than that, the IMDB ranking of the MCU does not diverge all that much from the RT ranking.

The Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies, Ranked by IMDb

All 24 MCU Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies Ranked By Tomatometer << Rotten Tomatoes – Movie and TV News

 

There was no backlash against Black Panther? Are we living in the same country, using the same internet?

Rotten Tomatoes Is Fighting Back Against White Nationalist Black Panther Trolls

That one article has a ton of relevant information in stark contrast to your view, including that there was even a Facebook event created called “Give Black Panther a Rotten Audience Score on Rotten Tomatoes" that had thousands of participants. That's just one example, but for you, there was "no campaign against it." Baffling. There are also many articles about how racist trolls peppered the internet with completely fabricated stories of how they were assaulted by Black Panther fans at theaters. Critics generally loved the movie - you oddly ascribe that to other, hmm, "factors", yet actual racist trolls targeted the movie, there's massive evidence of this - more than any other in recent memory to me - and you choose to ignore that entirely, you just think you know what fans think. You can find the same thing about what happened with Black Panther on IMDb - it was targeted with over a thousand one star ratings before it was even in full release.

Not much more to say here other than to say underneath what we are saying here, I don't think I could be further from your point of view unless I was on another planet. Cheers.

 

I never heard about any of that, and it doesn't sound like it would play a significant factor in the online scores. As you said, RT adjusts for any spamming, and so does IMDB, as they state below. Doesn't matter what you look at, fan forums, polls, etc. Black Panther does not come out as the #1 MCU movie anywhere except on the RT critic scores. They are a huge outlier on that point. I am a fan and I have followed superhero movies closely since 2002 when Spider-Man came out, so I do have a great sense of what the general fan opinion is on them. I know which ones are highly praised, which ones are divisive, which ones are considered average and which ones are panned, and what the points of disagreement usually are.

IMDb | Help

"When unusual voting activity is detected, an alternate weighting calculation may be applied in order to preserve the reliability of our system."

Other polls ranking MCU movies:

Black Panther Ranks 7th:
Poll Results: The Best Marvel Cinematic Universe Movie - IMDb

Black Panther Ranks 9th:
USD POLL : What is your favorite MCU movie?

Black Panther Ranks 10th:
MOVIE POLL: What is your favorite movie in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? - JoBlo

Also, I just did my own math on the IMDB Black Panther ratings, by eliminating all the 1-star ratings. The average came out to between 7.5 and 7.6, which would bring it up to 10 or 11 on the IMDB ranked list. That certainly could be a more accurate rating, as it ties in with the abovementioned polls closer. But still keeps it far from #1.

 

I'm still baffled by this comment you made, again we live on different planets so there's no need to continue this.

 

This comment comes from the Comicbook movie site and is a MAJOR PROBLEM with many of these movies, and it's supposed to be okay...
"Shang-Chi takes some liberties with its characterizations, so don’t expect a truly comic-accurate translation of either Shang or Wenwu/The Mandarin, but instead look forward to considerably better and more modern interpretations of these characters that feel far better suited for 2021".
You can't BRAINWASH me, I don't want some supposed considerably better more modern interpretation of these characters that's also supposed to be better suited for 2021!
I couldn't care less about that!
I want the real MARVEL COMICS Shang-Chi character, the one I grew up with all these years, the one I fell in love with! So now I have a wait-and-see attitude.

 

Then stick to your old comics. This is a Disney film after all.

 

These aren't scientific questions, so I have to use something like a poll to get anything more substantial than an opinion. I don't object to you having a different opinion. Unfortunately, it's no doubt getting too off-topic to continue discussing here.

 

Haha, true, we'd best leave the "does racism exist" question behind, in general here.

But I do find it interesting that seemingly every message board on the internet, when discussing Marvel movies, always seems to have these voices coming in saying "critics and their gullible followers cannot possibly have enjoyed these movies, it must really secretly be insincere/politically correct/corporate collusion/virtue signaling that results in this praise", and those arguments are almost always put forth by white males, and always seem to surface the strongest around movies where the strong lead character is not a white male (Black Panther, Shang-Chi, Captain Marvel). So that's interesting. That's our era in a nutshell for me. There cannot seem to be a movie with a strong minority character in the lead without people trolling it online. And this ignorance (subtle or otherwise) drowns out any actual criticisms of the film that may exist i.e. around the characters, the plot, etc.

 

It's not ignorance when the data clearly shows critics rated it higher than other sources. It's just not appropriate to judge any argument based on the demographics of the person putting it forth. If you have to resort to judging the person making the argument based on who they are, then you're saying you don't have a good way to refute the argument. The argument about PC wouldn't even be relevant to a movie where the character was not female or non-white, so that's a redundant, and undisputed point. The criticisms of Captain Marvel are certainly not hard to find (turns the Skrulls into a joke, turns Nick Fury into a joke, the mythology is confusing, the action is unremarkable, the lead character is too overpowered, cold and unrelatable). No one really criticized Black Panther, they just don't think it ranked high enough to be in the top 5 MCU. The action, plot and characters just aren't as compelling as some others. With Star Wars, you had John Boyega bad-mouthing his own movies, so, no, this criticism isn't always from white men.

I think there are lots of minority and/or female-led fanboy-type movies that are popular and not targeted for excessive criticism. Wonder Woman and Fury Road were films with a strong female in the lead that were hugely popular and very well-received from all quarters. Lucy was a big hit for ScarJo, if not considered the greatest movie of all time. Creed and Creed II were also well-liked. Halloween, Happy Death Day, Get Out and Us were well-received. Disney did well with the live action Poppins Returns, Aladdin, BATB, Cinderella and animated Coco, Finding Dory and Frozen films. People certainly liked Samuel L. as Nick Fury even though he didn't ever get to be the lead. Alita was a cult hit with a Latina playing an Asian robot, or something. Rogue One with a female lead was actually the most popular of Disney's Star Wars films with old school fans. Cara Dune was a hot character in Mandalorian until she was cancelled for...reasons. Most of Angelina Jolie's action films are popular, respected or at least not trashed on the basis of her performance or character. Likewise, people always seem to like Dwayne Johnson, if not always his choice of movies to star in.

 

Oh ok right

 

So what evidence do you have to back up your former statement (that some reviewers praise movies due to "political correctness")? If it's wrong to assert that a critic might be motivated by racism without providing evidence, it is equally wrong to claim that a critic is motivated by "political correctness" without providing any evidence. You are basically doing the same thing you accuse others of here... making an accusation without proof.

 

The evidence is that Black Panther is the #1 MCU movie with critics, but not nearly that high in other surveys. A lot of the negative X-Men Apocalypse movie reviews also cited the fight scene at Auschwitz as being offensive and a reason they rated it low. Critics are looking at things through a politically correct lens that the average person doesn't. Most people expect that wanton destruction will happen in a movie by the villains and that this isn't something to take personal offense to.

I'm also not accusing them of anything morally wrong. I'm just saying they have a different perspective in their reviews than the general public. The worse the accusation, the more you should have proof to back it up. Accusing someone of being a murderer is worse than accusing them of liking any movie that has voluptuous redheads in it.

 

It means that 42% of critics gave it a good review. I don't understand how it could be *that* high. The audience score of 27% sounds about right.

It doesn't happen to the major outlets. Nobody is going to tell the New York Times they can't review a movie. But CinemaBlend, or Fandango, or the film reviewer for Minneapolis Channel 4?

How it works is if you trash a movie, that studio doesn't invite you to their next premier. If you complain about it, *nobody* invites you to their next premier, and you probably loose your job. Your job is to review movies. If you work for a small outlet, and you give all good reviews, you get paid, and you get invited to nice Hollywood parties. If you give bad reviews, you don't get invited to nice Hollywood parties and you get fired.

It happened to the LA Times once, and they *did* complain about it (I think it was Disney?)

 

What Disney did to the LA Times had nothing to do with any movie reviews they had run, it was not backlash for a bad review, so it's irrelevant.

You've mentioned some other examples but only as hypotheticals. You mention CinemaBlend, Fandango (??)...you mention these as if they have some meaning, like there's some evidence iof anything other than your conjecture. What proof do you have that writing a bad review means that "*nobody* invites you to their next premier"? Literally, what proof? Something about a small time film reviewer from Minnesota hypothetically not getting invited to Hollywood parties? Huh? Because you sound so utterly sure and as if you are letting me in on some industry secret, but it all kind of...sounds made up, like someone who actually has no experience in the industry, sorry.

 

That isn't evidence, that is you making assumptions. Even if it is true that critics like BP better than "other surveys" (whatever that means) there could be many reasons for that. You have made an assumption that all those critics believe it is politically correct to give a more favorable review to a superhero movie because of its mostly-black cast, but you have no evidence of this.

Can you cite an example of that: a critic stating they found the fight scene at Aushwitz politically incorrect somehow, and gave the film a bad review specifically because of that? I'm skeptical of this.

If you are going to claim to be able to mindread a critic and imply they are motivated by biases then you should cite evidence, regardless of what biases you claim they are holding or how objectionable those biases might or might not be.

 

A total excuse!

 

Wait. Was that a quote from Marvel or the ComicBook site?

Anyway, every Marvel movie is an adaptation and none have been a straight to the screen adaptation from the books. Kevin Feige has always maintained that the MCU is its own thing, but their source materials are used with the greatest respect because they too are fans.

 

I'm not defending him but the two aren't mutually exclusive you know. You can make a film that is faithful to the source material and relevant to the 21st Century.

I think, for a while at least, that is what Marvel were doing, and that is what built the foundations for the huge popularity and success.

 

Again, not defending anyone, but I will say that there is an element of this and it would be daft not to acknowledge it. I think most sensible people would agree that Black Panther is a good film but it was overhyped. Regardless of the fact Wesley Snipes was in three Blade films that people seem to ignore there was this huge celebration of a 'first' Marvel solo Black superhero film. It was culturally important. Why, coincidently, I was looking at a picture on the BBC sport website today of an Arsenal playing celebrating a goal wearing a Black Panther mask. It was a huge film culturally, that is beyond doubt. And that all started to kick off before the film was even released. I even have a soundtrack CD with Kendrick Lamar doing some 'related' songs.

Now in that kind of atmosphere critics were very reluctant to give it a bad review. If they didn't like it they probably said it was ok, and if they thought it was good they probably exaggerated that a bit.

I can't see Shang Chi being anything like that to be honest. Firstly the rather stupid remarks of the star about him being some kind of trailblazer for Asian actors completely seems to forget the existence of Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Li and loads of others who have been huge movie stars. And I don't think this is coinciding with a cultural movement in a country like with what happened with BP. Also critics won't be worried about upsetting China as they don't seem to want anything to do with this either.

But films, like any art, don't exist in a vacuum.

 

I guess Slant won’t be invited to review more Marvel films. https://www.slantmagazine.com/film/shang-chi-and-the-legend-of-the-ten-rings-review-marvel/

 

I'm not sure I will. Not pre-judging, but the clip I saw last world bares no resemblance to the classic Doug Moench and artist Paul Gulacy take - generally acknowledged as being the comic's high point. Why not film what had already been laid down?