For those who have tried the 7N7, how would you characterise their sound in relation to say a Sylvania VT231 or similar 6SN7?
As I understand it, VT-231 belongs to the top tier of the 6SN7 type, and I haven't compared the 7N7 to the best of them. To me, it sound as if it is has no weak spots, however--there's nothing that really draws attention to itself. My comparison to the Telefunken house is because I felt it had the same signature that I have experienced with Tfk in other applications, e.g. in my Pathos Classic One and my previous DAC, which was an AN DAC 2 clone. So *perhaps* it has a slight sparkle in the highs ...
All vt231 (Syl, Kr, Rca, RT and TS) are in the same tier, not that TS is one notch above . Bass Kr, Rca, Rt, TS , Syl in the order Transparency TS, Syl, Kr, RT, RCA Details Syl, TS, Kr, RT, RCA Tonal balance Kr, RCA, TS, RT, Syl Soundstage width RCA, Syl, TS, Kr, RT Soundstage Depth TS, Kr, Syl, RT, RCA Thus overall they are close in SQ. Unless you want see-through transparency, you do not need to pay 500$ for TS bgrp. Kr is attractive due to best bass and sweet tonality. Syl is attractive due to excellent details and transparency RCA give warm and lush sound which make one comfortable with nice bass. RT is not far behind other ones. TS’s bass is close to Syl with tight but not full impact compared with KR.
Choice of tube or cable depends on system and personal taste. There is no best thing. for everybody. I had pulled the trigger for another Kenrad vt231 which fit my personal taste with sweet mid, treble and most strong bass. Thus I will have 3 pairs of KR vt231 which will outlast me. Each vt231 has 10k expected hours. The only tube which has possibility to dethrone KR vt231 is Melz metal base which I ordered 3 weeks ago.
Yes you should try Kenrad vt231 before it start going up the price. I heard that pair of TS bgrp used to cost around 300$ two years ago, but now its price is 500$ and up.
Buying them sooner rather than later would be wise. Especially since you're going to cause the prices on those KR tubes to go up. I have a pair of TS BGRP 12SN7GT. The 12SN7 is the 12v version. My amp has a switch to accept either 12v or 6v. So I can use the 12SN7 tubes. But I need to get those tubes tested before I try them in my amp. I don't like using my amp as an expensive tube tester. I haven't found someone local yet who can fully and properly test a 12SN7 yet. I think the pair of TS 12SN7 tubes were around $150 when I got them. They'd be more than that now (assuming they test OK). Another option for the TS BGRP is the 6F8G version with an adapter to use in a 6SN7 socket. But the 6F8G to 6SN7 adapters can be kinda spendy (the Woo Audio version is $80 each).
Ha ha I already have three pairs of Krvt 231 and I do not mind using some other 6sn7 tubes from time to time to taste different flavor. My journey on 6sn7 is almost over. The only remote possibility is what will happen if I like Melz metal base. I heard about 6F8g option. But it is not easy to get Tung Sol 6f8g tube either.
It's no longer easy to find the TS 6F8G version. A few years ago it was possible. Not now. I missed out because I bought my 6SN7 compatible tube amp too late to get in while the desirable tube gettin was good. My headphone amp is a Cavalli Liquid Glass. It is an amp designed for tube rolling. For trying different types of tubes. It can use a variety of noval or octal tubes. As long as the heater voltage and current and plate voltage and current are within the ranges the amp can use I can use the tube. Some tubes will be more optimal than others with those constraints. Lots of choices of tubes to play with if I get the itch. Most people who have this amp end up settling on 6SN7 or 12SN7 variants as the preferred tube. But still lots of other tube types it can use and that some people like. Plenty of tubes I've never tried yet for me to explore. The problem with randomly trying different tube types is that very few of the tubes I've tried suit my personal preferences. The good news for me is that I've found I like the Liquid Glass amp with the Psvane CV181-TII and my Liquid Fire amp with the Gold Lion E88CC/6922 tubes. Both are using new production tubes. Both amps give me a different presentation and sound. I like both. So instead of tube rolling I've been amp rolling. When I want the sound of the Liquid Fire amp and the tubes in it I listen to that amp. When I want the sound of the Liquid Glass and the tubes in it I listen to that amp. I've heard better NOS tubes in the Liquid Fire, but those tubes now cost around $600 for a quad and I'd have to retube about every 2 or 3 years given how much I use the amp. That gets too expensive. Similar for the Liquid Glass amp with the Psvane tubes. The Liquid Glass does a different sound and presentation that is done well enough using the Psvane tubes that I'm fine with that. When I want a different sound I amp roll. And I think that is ultimately enjoyable enough and less expensive than trying to find the optimal (and expensive) tubes for each amp.
Although, I also have Shuaguang Black 181z, it will not be included here since it is not Nos. I had already done comparison between Sylvania vt231,and Shuaguang Black 181z about one year ago. My conclusion is that although latter sound warm and organic, it falls short of the former in details and transparency. Thus it is not in the same league as five vt231 tubes here. But its performance will be close to 6s7ngtb made in 1950’s which can be bought at 50-60$ per pair. If you like new production tube, it is normal. 6s7ngtb made in 1950’s are also pretty good.
Thanks Encore for your comment. Some vt231's like Raytheon, RCA and Sylvania could be found around 100$ per pair from Ebay. It could be hit or miss. But if you order one from dealer with positive ratings and accept 30'days return, you can minimize the risk. If you could compare vt231 with 7N7, it would be useful.
Great. This thread has re-awakened in me that restless feeling that tube-rollers often get. Dang! I now have a matched quad of NOS RCA grey-glass VT-231 tubes on order scheduled to arrive next week, just to try out. These will be input tubes for my Berning Siegfried zotl amp. I went crazy and also bought a pair of rare Mullard 6J5GT tubes used along with the four 6sn7s (vt-231) in the amp input section. But it's so fun to roll tubes and listen to all the various 'flavors' you can get from your system's sound, searching for that elusive magical combination.
Tube rolling is fun unless you spend too much money. That is why I think TS bgrp is over priced. After having gone through 13 different kind of 6sn7 tubes, I found my favorite Kenrad vt231 with sweet mid and strong bass. But I do not mind using some other 6sn7 tubes from time to time to taste different flavor. RCA vt231 s also nice tube to make one comfortable. Have fun!
I do agree. The difference is that you're aiming for best while I'm aiming for good enough. I don't have the budget to aim for best. I've learned to be satisfied with good enough (which compared to most others in the headphone hobby I'm still aiming pretty high, just not topmost best kind of high). I do have some audiophile nervosa, just not so much as to get me to spend more than I can afford. For new production tubes I think the Psvane CV181-TII tubes are doing well and have a sound style with my amp that I like. Not as transparent as the best NOS tubes. And doesn't fill in the center of the soundstage and imaging as much as I would like. But good enough for doing the style of sound they do. They are expensive for new production. More expensive that some NOS 6sn7 tubes with more transparency. On a cost per transparency measure they do fall short. But on balance I do prefer them in spite of their cost. The advantage with them being new production is that they're easy to buy. Psvane has been improving each generation of their tubes. And as long as Psvane continues to improve and continues to make tubes like that I'm in good shape for having a future availability of tubes I like for my amp without needing to hoard old NOS tubes. I'm thinking of trying a NOS 6CG7 / 6FQ7 tube because I can. My amp will accept them. The 6CG7 / 6FQ7 is kinda a mini 9 pin version of the 6sn7.
I am also looking for the best value for performance, not just the absolute best. TS Bgrp may be best 6sn7 tube over other vt231 s. But to me, it is only 10% better than other ones with 4 times price. Thus I had decided to keep just one TS bgrp while I bought two or three pairs of KR, Syl, RCA and RT.
I had done concrete comparison twice through the thread . One excel file is in the link Shootout of Nos 6sn7 tubes
Pair MELZ Russian 1578 6SN7 Metal base super tubes I placed an order for this genuine "Melz 1578" at 250$. Although I do not need more 6sn7 tubes, I pulled the trigger for shootout. Let us see what happen! The following is quoted from Jesse Brennt. 6SN7 TUBES IN STOCK " New Old Stock White Box, aged. This is the rare military version of the 6H8C with the special 1578 stamp on the glass that audiophiles look for, NOT the junky blackbase version selling elsewhere for $25. Worldwide stocks of the military version have virtually vanished from the market. Heavy duty metal bases, T-shape plates with the holes in the sides, and spring steel plate supports like Tung Sol oval plate construction! These tubes have incredible air, image, "rosin-on-the-bow" realism, and powerful yet accurate bass. Very hot testing tubes with great gain, yet incredibly quiet. Some clients say these are the best 6SN7 tubes they have ever heard. I have a few RARE matched pairs of these, carefully selected and matched to within 1-2 percent. SINGLES ARE $100 EACH. Better grab them now, before these Russian beauties become rarer than Faberge"
Both of my parents had lived until 87 years old. My father died due to smoking related lung failure. My mother died in bed without doing enough exercise. But I do not smoke and do regular exercise. Thus I may outlive you, no use to include you at my will.
I expect to receive it around next weekend. It may sound lively and too forward in my system but I am very curious about it.
I've owned a quad of those Russian military 6H8C tubes with the holes in the plate, metal base etc. for a couple of years now. They are dated 1954, with papers indicating military use including the O T K stamp on the base. New tubes. They do not have the 1578 stamped on the glass, but the construction looks identical in every way (perhaps they started adding the 1578 on the glass later). When I first tried them back then one seemed to have gone bad -- really noisy. The rest seemed to be okay. So since I needed a matched quad, those I put away and they sat unused until this weekend. Curious about the OP's intention to get some, I placed all four of mine back in the respective sockets on my amp, and amazingly this time, no noise! So I listened, and it wasn't very long before noticing these are some special tubes! "Clear" is the best overall descriptor I can make for these. They are full-range extended at the frequency extremes, crystal clear treble, but with no glare or any harshness! The bass is gloriously deep, tuneful...and clear. Voices are prominently brought out in the mix, sounding very natural. Such smooth sound, yet nothing is missing. Amazing detail expressed in a natural way. What luck for me to find them all working perfectly now! It's the best I've heard my amp sound, and now I wonder what I'll do when those RCA grey glass vt-231 tubes arrive this week. Those I suspect will be *quite* different in sound.
2 x MELZ 6N8S 6SN7 Metal Base Tubes | eBay l also ordered this tube without 1578 logo 4 weeks ago. But it is still on the way. It will be nice if I can get this delivered soon so that I can compare between the tubes. It could be hit or miss to get nice Nos tubes. You may be lucky to get nice batch.
I'm not sure those shown have the holes in the plates Thomas. There is only one picture, so you can't tell. I saw another set from that seller with three different pictures of the tubes (for $50), and they didn't have the holes. I noticed that the pair is $50, so I suspect those do not have the holes, which is what you want. I hope I'm wrong.
