Should the whole system be balanced to make a difference?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Benzion, Aug 31, 2020.

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  1. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    PM sent. Probably makes more sense to answer these types of question privately from now on.
     
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  2. Radley

    Radley Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    A very special thank you to Mr. Karsten for his insight. I spent way too many hours in the 70s & 80s trouble shooting systems with hum & noise problems. One can hear the difference between balanced and unbalanced systems but not at idle. Pause a record or cd and turn the volume all the way up, yes, noise you will hear...
     
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  3. Doctor Fine

    Doctor Fine "So Hip It Would Blister Your Brain"

    I'm rewiring my house recording console as we speak and having balanced +4dB XLR output connectors available on my mixing desk immediately came into play.
    I had to in turn send the output way over to the other end of my studio to reach the amp stack running my JBL/bass bin stack used as far-field monitors and as PA for rehearsals.
    There was hum galore as the two areas of my room are on different electrical outlets and a ground loop started blasting out 60hZ hum big time.
    A simple rewiring using the available XLR setup from the desk completely eliminated all hum, buzz and noise to absolute zero.
    This was due to the differential noise rejection inherent in the wiring options PLUS the added noise reduction afforded by running an output signal so much hotter than the background noise.
    That extra gain overcame whatever leftover noise was on the line because at this point I simply can't FIND any noise!
    I can now turn up my monitors to a full two thousand watts RMS and not even hear hiss over at my chair.
    Nice!
     
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  4. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    I'd have one main question about all of this before I even got to the question of cost, and that is where does balancing fall on this audio improvement scale? :

    1 immediately noticeable improvement

    2 noticeable improvement after 10 minutes of listening

    3 improvement only noticed after extended listening


    A corollary would be is there a certain set of points where balancing provided more benefit than others (assuming balancing the whole system was impossible), i.e. turntable to phono pre, main preamp to power amp, etc.

    My preamp and power amp have XLR jacks, my phono pre does and I can swap out the RCA junction box on the table to XLR (but I don't know if any of this would result in any "true" balancing as SH and others pointed out)...but if I did all of that for anything less than #1 on the scale I don't think I'd go through the hassle and expense.
     
  5. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Using balanced connections does not inherantly improve sound quality.

    It improves noise rejection.

    If you don't have any noise, such as in a short cable run, than there is no benefit.
     
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  6. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Before having all balanced connections (prepro, preamp with HT Bypass, amps and Oppo 205) I had low level hum and hiss from all of my speakers (5.1 system). It wasn't audible unless I was very close to any of the speakers. With my current system and all balanced connections there is no hum or hiss at all from any speaker. I can put my ear right up to every speaker and there is absolutely zero noise.

    All my gear is in the same rack so the cable runs are very short. I don't experience any actual SQ improvements with balanced opposed to single ended (RCA) connections. But the lack of any noise is a huge benefit of using balanced connections IMO. To me in a way that is a SQ improvement. So I would disagree with those that say balanced connections are not needed for short cable runs or worth the added cost. The other factor is that I find XLR cables have a more secure connection. No worries about damaging an XLR input/output when applying or removing cables as one might find with tight fitting RCA cables.

    So in my system there is an obvious difference when using balanced connections and well worth it IMO :).
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2020
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  7. Ralph Karsten

    Ralph Karsten Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Paul MN
    IF your preamp has both RCA and XLR outputs, AND there isn't a switch to go from one to the other as an output, THEN its likely that it does not support the balanced line standard. If it does not support the standard, then your answer is '3' and 'maybe'. If your equipment supports the standard, then its '1'.

    RCA connections use the shield as part of the circuit connection. Balanced operation does not. This makes them mutually incompatible. If you have balanced and RCAs at the same time, this means that the balanced output is really a single ended connection that references ground, along with a second single ended output that is out of phase with the first, and also references ground. I'm talking about the signal connections, pins 2 and 3. How it should work is pin 2 is referenced to pin 3 to complete the circuit and vice versa. This feature of balanced operation is why you get no noise from ground loops (since it ignores ground) and also is a big part of why it is so much more immune to the 'sound' (or artifact) of interconnect cables, since the shield is only used to shield and not also as a ground/circuit return path.
     
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