Simply Red Mastering Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by ibis, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    No, I don't think Barry is credited anywhere in the Picture Book liner notes, but I think he is known to have mastered the U.S. cd (check the Barry Diament thread to verify).

    He is credited in the Men & Women liner notes in tiny print on the last inner page after the track listing. The notes also contain the Ted Jensen credit which is a carryover from the vinyl.

    Edit: Just checked the Barry Diament Thread and he actually did Picture Book, Men & Women, A New Flame, and Stars. Given the variations we are seeing, I now wonder which discs actually have his mastering. Presumably the U.S. copies, but we may need help from the man himself to sort it out :)
     
  2. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    I also have this edition.

    DR Peak RMS Filename
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    DR11 -0.07 dB -12.63 dB 01 Something Got Me Started.wav
    DR10 -0.18 dB -11.96 dB 02 Stars.wav
    DR11 -0.07 dB -12.23 dB 03 Thrill Me.wav
    DR11 -0.00 dB -12.95 dB 04 Your Mirror.wav
    DR11 -0.00 dB -13.83 dB 05 She's Got It Bad.wav
    DR12 -0.15 dB -13.42 dB 06 For Your Babies.wav
    DR12 -0.00 dB -13.30 dB 07 Model.wav
    DR12 -0.03 dB -14.04 dB 08 How Could I Fall.wav
    DR11 -0.00 dB -13.06 dB 09 Freedom.wav
    DR11 -0.08 dB -12.74 dB 10 Wonderland.wav
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Number of files: 10
    Official DR value: DR11

    From simplyred.com

    Credits
    Mick Hucknall — Vocals & Background Vocals
    Fritz McIntyre — Keyboards, Vocals & Background Vocals
    Tim Kellett — Keyboards
    Heitor T P — Guitars
    Ian Kirkham — Saxophone
    Gota — Drums, Percussion & Programs
    Shaun Ward — Bass Guitar

    Produced by Stewart Levine for Oliverea Productions Ltd
    Co-Produced by Mick Hucknall for Simply Red Records Ltd
    Engineered and Mixed by Daren Klein
    Recorded at Condulmer Recording Studio, Venice, Italy
    Assistant Engineer Sandro Franchin
    Mixed at Conway Studios, Los Angeles
    Assistant Engineer Marnie Riley
    Mastered by Bernie Grundman at Bernie Grundman Mastering, Los Angeles
    Keyboards programmed by Jess Bailey
    All background vocals by Mick Hucknall except:
    Background vocals on Freedom by Mick Hucknall & Fritz McIntyre
    Additional vocals on Wonderland and Something Got Me Started by Fritz McIntyre
    Photography and Art Direction by Zanna
    Design by Sammy Farrington
    Album co-ordination Bob Harding
    Thanks to Roger Vanilla, Zowie Broach and all the staff at Condulmer
    Shaun Ward appears courtesy of SBK Records Ltd
    Worldwide representation Elliot Rashman and Andy Dodd for So What Arts Ltd
    All tracks used by kind permission of the publishers
     
  3. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    Any mention of Barry in your US Stars booklet?
     
  4. Echo

    Echo Forum Resident

    So the US album is Barry's? I thought I read in another thread about Simply Red, the 1985 WG version was his mastering?
     
  5. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    I don't know about Men & Women for sure yet, but there are 2 versions of Picture Book both of which were made in Germany.

    Looking at the Representation info on the Simply Red website they have agreements for US and then Worldwide so I presume one was mastered just for US consumption and the other for their native UK territory plus everywhere else that isn't the good ole' US of A!

    I would bet that the German for US mastering was Barry's (if i was a betting man, that is)!
     
  6. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    Men & Women Barry Diament

    Update! The copy of Men & Women I have is

    Made in U.S.A. by WEA Manufacturing Inc
    Elektra 60727-2
    Matrix: 6027-2 SRC-01

    The booklet says in very small type 'CD Mastering by Barry Diament, Atlantic Studios'.

    It has the same peak levels as marcel's Made In Germany disc Elektra 242 071-2, made in Germany by Record Service GmbH, Alsdorf. Matrix 229242071-2 WME.

    It also matches curbach's U.S. Elektra E2-60727 (Columbia House Record Club) edition.

    EAC peak levels:

    Track 01 86.4 %
    Track 02 100.0 %
    Track 03 88.2 %
    Track 04 92.3 %
    Track 05 33.2 %
    Track 06 86.0 %
    Track 07 86.6 %
    Track 08 100.0 %
    Track 09 84.9 %
    Track 10 93.3 %

    DR Peak RMS Filename
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR12 -1.42 dB -15.74 dB 01 The Right Thing.wav
    DR15 -0.21 dB -17.31 dB 02 Infidelity.wav
    DR14 -1.77 dB -17.81 dB 03 Suffer.wav
    DR13 -0.77 dB -16.46 dB 04 I Won't Feel Bad.wav
    DR12 -9.67 dB -25.75 dB 05 Ev'ry Time We Say Goodbye.wav
    DR12 -1.68 dB -16.82 dB 06 Let Me Have It All.wav
    DR16 -1.34 dB -18.80 dB 07 Love Fire.wav
    DR14 -0.00 dB -16.52 dB 08 Move On Out.wav
    DR13 -1.61 dB -16.73 dB 09 Shine.wav
    DR14 -1.07 dB -17.58 dB 10 Maybe Someday....wav
    DR15 -0.00 dB -17.30 dB Simply Red - Men And Women.wav
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of files: 11
    Official DR value: DR14

    ===================================


    So, we have a Men & Women Barry Diament mastering made in both the US and Germany.
     
  7. PH416156

    PH416156 Alea Iacta Est

    Location:
    Europe
    Picture book chart
     

    Attached Files:

    • pb.jpg
      pb.jpg
      File size:
      32 KB
      Views:
      90
  8. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    Hey, a picture paints a thousand words!
     
  9. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    I didn't see his name anywhere. There is a credit for Bernie Grundman, but I'm pretty sure that's a carryover from the lp. I'll have to double-check my lp.
     
  10. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    DR analysis from my German issue

    DR Peak RMS Filename
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    DR11 -0.07 dB -12.63 dB 01 Something Got Me Started.wav
    DR10 -0.18 dB -11.96 dB 02 Stars.wav
    DR11 -0.07 dB -12.23 dB 03 Thrill Me.wav
    DR11 -0.00 dB -12.95 dB 04 Your Mirror.wav
    DR11 -0.00 dB -13.83 dB 05 She's Got It Bad.wav
    DR12 -0.15 dB -13.42 dB 06 For Your Babies.wav
    DR12 -0.00 dB -13.30 dB 07 Model.wav
    DR12 -0.03 dB -14.04 dB 08 How Could I Fall.wav
    DR11 -0.00 dB -13.06 dB 09 Freedom.wav
    DR11 -0.08 dB -12.74 dB 10 Wonderland.wav
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of files: 10
    Official DR value: DR11

    I now have a US pressing of Stars in my possession, booklet says mastered by Bernie Grundman at Bernie Grundman mastering, Los Angeles, although I suspect that to refer to the LP.

    eastwest records america 91773-2

    Disc made in USA by WEA Manufacturing

    Matrix reads: 3 91773-2 SRC-01 M255

    EAC peak levels:

    Track 01 100.0 %
    Track 02 97.9 %
    Track 03 98.8 %
    Track 04 99.3 %
    Track 05 99.9 %
    Track 06 97.4 %
    Track 07 99.9 %
    Track 08 99.4 %
    Track 09 99.9 %
    Track 10 98.6 %

    DR Peak RMS Filename
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    DR11 -0.08 dB -12.62 dB 01 Something Got Me Started.wav
    DR10 -0.25 dB -11.96 dB 02 Stars.wav
    DR10 -0.19 dB -12.27 dB 03 Thrill Me.wav
    DR11 -0.13 dB -12.96 dB 04 Your Mirror.wav
    DR11 -0.08 dB -13.85 dB 05 She's Got It Bad.wav
    DR12 -0.26 dB -13.41 dB 06 For Your Babies.wav
    DR12 -0.05 dB -13.30 dB 07 Model.wav
    DR12 -0.07 dB -14.02 dB 08 How Could I Fall.wav
    DR11 -0.01 dB -13.08 dB 09 Freedom.wav
    DR11 -0.13 dB -12.74 dB 10 Wonderland.wav
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Number of files: 10
    Official DR value: DR11

    So, we have a different mastering.

    I've listened to both.
    German; More 'air', more 3-dimensional soundstage.
    US; Slightly increased bass and better for it.

    My preference right now is for the US edition as it gives the bass that this dance music needs to get my *** moving (read foot tapping at my age).

    Both sound excellent mind you. The recording says DDD on the German discs (no mention on the US disc). Unlike the comparison I did of Picture Book where I think I could hear a difference in tape generation between Ger and US, there isn't anything as striking here. Sounds like its from the same (digital) source and just differs due to mastering moves.
     
  11. mscoll

    mscoll Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK, South East
    I have this. Pretty good sounding release I'd say. I have nothing to compare, but below I've attached a spectrum of "Thrill Me". Even if the peaks level are high, the discs sound great. This is not remastered release I suppose. This is 1991 release.

    [​IMG]

    :wave:
     
    George P likes this.
  12. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    Stars

    I did check last night and the Bernie Grundman credit is on my lp. Interestingly, my lp is a German issue that does not appear to have been mastered by Grundman either. It has generic Alsdorf markings and machine stamped matrix typical of German mastered vinyl. If Stars was actually released on vinyl in the U.S. I've never seen a copy.
     
  13. PH416156

    PH416156 Alea Iacta Est

    Location:
    Europe
    Interesting...this is Thrill Me from the remastered edition
     

    Attached Files:

  14. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    I now have another copy of Men And Women with the same Peak Levels but with Matrix code 242 071-2 SRC-02. This too is Made in Germany by Record Service. No mention of Barry in booklet.
     
  15. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    SIMPLY RED - STARS
    Should anyone be interested, The MAIL ON SUNDAY giveaway CD uses, as would be expected, the original German mastering.
     
  16. JA Fant

    JA Fant Well-Known Member

    The U.S. original CD sounds fine to my ears.
     
  17. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    You have the best one IMO.
     
  18. little-endian

    little-endian Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Germany
    Picture Book Mastering

    Any news about the encountered differences between the so called US- and UK-masterings?

    Interestingly, the dynamic range at least according to the TT Meter seems to be slightly higher on the mastering with the higher peaks (DR15 instead of DR14) so I wonder which one is closer to the source.

    Besides I don't get it why so many versions of one piece of music have to exist at all in general. The album "Brothers in Arms" is the best example for me where something has been already done right almost 30 years ago and then unnecessarily scrambled uncountable times to the worse for nothing (except money).
     
  19. ibis

    ibis Happy as fish and gorgeous as geese Thread Starter

    Location:
    UK
    Picture Book; http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=7618294&postcount=25


    My choice, as far as the early Simply Red albums go, is for:

    UK release when recording is to tape (AAD or ADD) due to better generation of tape. Barry Diament's mastering for the US doesn't overcome a 2nd generation copy tape.

    US release when recording is digital (DDD). Barry Diament's mastering is nicer when the playing field is level.

    If you read back through the thread, I hope you can find my choices for each album spelled out with a little more detail.

    As far as Brothers In Arms is concerned, even back in the day, the European release, mastered by Bob Ludwig (a Yank), was better than the US release, mastered by John Dent (a Brit). Confused? Both had a digital source, but Ludwig is the winner for me. After that everyone is a loser, its just re-released for marketing purposes.

    As far as Dynamic Range readings, don't get bogged down between a DR 14 and DR 15 release. Both are VERY dynamic. Once you get past that, its down to the mastering moves and EQ and the quality of the source. Fortunately, all the releases are pretty cheap from Amazon marketplace sellers. I've had a lot of fun getting into a band I'd previously overlooked. As they say, your mileage may vary. Feel free to disagree with my broad analysis.

    Although good, some of the 'better' versions are still not perfect. Perhaps AF or MFSL will pick them up one day?
     
  20. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Sorry I'm late to this thread but I recently bought the Warner Rhino Original Album Series set of Simply Red's first five albums and I thought I'd add the peak levels for the first four of these if anyone's interested.

    1. Picture Book: this is neither the "UK" nor the "US" mastering but the same as the one reported by marcel in post number 8. To my ears it sounds very similar indeed to the "UK" pressing - in fact I can't detect a difference, unless it's in volume levels:

    Track 01 98.9 %
    Track 02 98.4 %
    Track 03 100.0 %
    Track 04 96.8 %
    Track 05 97.4 %
    Track 06 99.8 %
    Track 07 93.5 %
    Track 08 100.0 %
    Track 09 98.7 %
    Track 10 98.2 %

    2. Men And Women: levels are exactly the same as reported by all others here.

    3. A New Flame: levels are exactly the same as reported by all others here except for the aberrant Columbia Record Club mastering reported by curbach in post number 20.

    4. Stars: interestingly this is not the remaster. The peak levels are the same as reported by two or three people here:

    01 100.0
    02 98.3
    03 100.0
    04 100.0
    05 100.0
    06 98.3
    07 100.0
    08 100.0
    09 100.0
    10 99.2

    I haven't been able to compare this with any other versions.

    So all in all, not a bad set for the price, though the originals are to be had at very low prices second hand or even new.

    Also, I'm sorry to muddy the waters but I have ANOTHER mastering of Picture Book to report. I picked this one up for £1 in a London record market and it's in a very old, heavyweight jewel case. It's Elektra 960 452-2 and made in West Germany by Polygram (so it's pre-unification, meaning pre-1990.) The matrix number is 7539 860452-2 2895 879 01 and the peak levels are:

    01 100.0
    02 100.0
    03 88.7
    04 74.5
    05 83.7
    06 86.9
    07 62.7
    08 76.0
    09 86.8
    10 86.7

    As you can see, my peak levels are fairly close to those reported by ibis for his "UK" mastering. However my matrix number is different from his and ends in an 01 so I wonder if I have the absolutely true, genuine, original echt UK mastering???!!!

    Interesting thread, ibis, thanks for starting it.
     
  21. fantgolf

    fantgolf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rochester, MN
    I have the Picture Book German Electra 960 452-2 and IMO the sound is excellent. I remember using it as a demo disc.
     
  22. Starwanderer

    Starwanderer Senior Member

    Location:
    Valencia, Spain
    I've found another mastering of Men and Women

    Japan 32XD-670 Matrix: 32XD-670-V1E

    1. 91.3%
    2. 100.0%
    3. 96.3%
    4. 99.0%
    5. 36.3%
    6. 100.0%
    7. 95.1%
    8. 100.0%
    9. 87.5%
    10. 90.7%

    No mention of Barry anywhere.

    I only listened to it on my computer but it sounds good and the waveforms for "The Right Thing" and "I Won't Feel Bad" look nice

    TRT.jpg IWFB.jpg
     
  23. mario villarroel

    mario villarroel Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    US masters are very good to my ears, specially A NEW FLAME
     
  24. c-eling

    c-eling They're made of light,We never would have guessed

    New one for Picture Book
    Elektra 9 60452-2 Barcode -0 7559-60452-2 Matrix-2895 879 01 *
    This a 'Made In Switzerland' press/ US inserts
    100/100/88.7/74.5/83.8/86.9/62.7/76/86.8/86.7 DR-15/ Accurate Rip passed
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
    PH416156 likes this.
  25. PH416156

    PH416156 Alea Iacta Est

    Location:
    Europe
    Already reported here :)


    have yet to track down this one :realmad:
     
    c-eling likes this.

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