Sinatra Capitol 20 & 24-Bit Masters

Has anyone heard the 20 & 24-bit masters of Sinatra's Capitol recordings that have been released sporadically since 1998. Dreadful sound in general. Please let your opinions be known, and then I will also discuss this matter in depth.

 

Have a look at

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89&highlight=sinatra

Arne

 

Also take a look at the discussion on the Frank Sinatra Family Forum. Apparently, Chuck Granata (the guy responsible for the reissues of Frank's Columbia era stuff and the forthcoming movie box set from Rhino) is of the opinion that the remastering engineer for Frank's Capitol era stuff (a fellow named Bob Norberg) messed around with the sound using digital technology and screwed it up. For me, I think that the mono material at least sound fine on the 24 bit Norberg remastered "Concepts" box set. Stay away from the "Entertainer of the Century" 20 bit remasters from 1998-99 though. The Sinatra Family Forum can be found at:

www.sinatrafamily.com

Then go to the "Frank Sinatra discussion forum". Look for a thread called "Capitol remasters".

 

Thanks to ArneW and feinstein.

ArneW - did you peel off the "Nat" cover like the Beatles Yesterday... and Today to see the original of Steve?

feinstein - I read your post on the Sinatra Family site not too long ago when my buddy Chuck sent me the thread. What Chuck stated about the processing is not opinion, it's a fact. I became friends with him at the 1998 Hofstra conference on Sinatra and when I began discussing what was starting to come out of Capitol then, he basically felt the same way and we had something in common. I noticed these discs problems (except for Norberg's SFSL which I refuse to buy) without him pointing them out to me (I'm not trying to pat myself not for hearing this unaided). I have much more to say about this, but it will have to wait - I don't have internet access at home (I was called "primative" about a month ago) so I will post more here and there after hours at work or on my lunch. Much more to follow. I care about this music so much and it disturbs me to see it presented in the manner it is in currently (IMO) in this day and age.

Any more comments, opinions, etc. would be much appreciated.

 

I recently picked up the Concepts box (cheap off Ebay - $90!) and am generally very pleased with it, though i do agree that the "dry" tracks are a matter of personal preference over the "wetter" earlier CD versions.

There's a lot of debate over whether or not this box set sounds good, what Capitol did to screw it up, or how they could have made it better, but perhaps the more pertinent question is:

Is there anything out there, as a whole, that is better sounding than the (new) Concepts box? It's kind of silly to argue about how they screwed it up (or got it right this time) if there are no other CD options out there.

ray

 

Also, there's been plenty of discussion about the Capitol box, but how is the sound on the Reprise 20-disc box?

 

Sinatra Reprise CDs

The Reprise box is O.K. for completists. It apparently uses the same tapes as the non-20-bit individual releases. Some are good, others not. Have a look at

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2223&highlight=Sinatra

Only yesterday, I compared the "Sinatra And Strings" outtakes to what has been officially released by Reprise. I always thought the album sounded great, but in direct comparison you instantly realize how much compressed the vocals are.

 

I picked up the "Classic Sinatra" single disc done by Nordberg (which I'm pretty sure is the same mastering job as the Concepts box, but I could be wrong). I was really disappointed with it... it sounds cold, harsh, and metallic to me.

 

SH wrote:

Really? Seems like I cut off one of your ears in Photoshop, accidentally.

 

About a year ago I sent a very long letter to "The Absolute Sound" in reference to this matter. Around November (maybe December) 2000, I was in a Barnes & Noble and took a look at the then latest issue of TAS. I don't subscribe (I prefer Stereophile), but if something looks interesting in it, I'll pick it up. This particular issue had an article about Nelson Riddle. Of course, the article also mentioned Sinatra. In the sidebar there was also a reference to a back issue with an article called, if I remember correctly off the top of my head, "Sound of Sinatra" by Paul Seydor. In February 2001, I received my back issue (November/December 1999 I believe) with this article. It's actually a sidebar to the main article, also regarding Sinatra (I think by David Morell). The sidebar discusses fidelity. When I read it, it seemed to me that Mr. Seydor was pleased with the recent individual Capitol CD's (not the new Concepts box set, which wasn't released when his article was written). I was disturbed (putting it very mildly). I wrote them a letter that I was 99% sure they wouldn't publish due to its length and the fact it referenced an article 1 1/2 years old by the time I finished it and sent it out. I basically commented on the sound of all the Entertainer of the Century individual discs released up until that time, except for SFSL, which as I mentioned before, I refuse to buy in its current format (I ended up using a quote from someone else since I didn't want to ignore this issue entirely). I plan on referencing my old letter piece by piece and posting much of it here with the possibility of a few revisions to make my comments perfectly clear (again - it critiqued the individual discs - I don't own the Concepts box). I also plan on writing up the latest additions to Capitol's part in the Entertainer of the Century CD reissues when I get a chance and then posting them here.

 

ArneW,

Regarding the Reprise 20-CD set, not all the tapes used for the box were the same tapes used for Reprise's part in the Entertainer of the Century reissues. Off the top of my head, the Ellington album was remixed from the original 8-tracks, and mastered by Lee Herschberg, the original engineer. Excellent sound - one of Sinatra's finest sounding recordings (IMO). The box set uses the original stereo mix - I don't know if that was taken from the original 2-track mixdown master or a copy of it.

 

On the oldest DCC Forum, Steve stated that the Ellington/Sinatra album was the last four-track Sinatra recording.

The original two-track mix was not in good shape, so a four-track remix was used for the single CD.

 

Thanks John - I learned something. CD versions I've heard that were released prior to the 1999 version that have tracks from that album gave me the sense the tape used had seen better days. Do you know if the first Jobim album isalso a 4-track, not an 8-track as I was once told?

 

The first Jobim album, according to Steve, was recorded on 1/2 inch four-channel tape like this:

Track 1: Orchestra left
Track 2: Jobim
Track 3: Sinatra
Track 4: Orchestra right

Great album isn't it?

 

MMM,

I should have put it right: I don't think that the Reprise box set uses any of the "Entertainer Of The Century" 20-bit masters. The box set was originally issued in 1995 to celebrate the singer's 80th birthday and had thus been assembled from the tapes also used for the initial Reprise CD releases issued between ca. 1988 and 1992, I guess. To the best of my knowledge, the first newly remastered "Entertainer Of The Century" Reprise CD did not appear until 1998, only a month or so before FS died.

Arne

 

John - That Jobim album is fantastic - music and sound. Could you guide me to where Steve discussed what you told me about the multitrack tape. It must be interesting.

ArneW - You're definetly correct - those EOTC series of discs began in May 1998.

 

John,

the Sinatra/Jobim album is one of my all-time favourites. I love the LP. Sadly, all of its delicacy is gone in any of the CD releases. I think Steve agrees on this... A few days ago Steve mentioned the original stereo master is no longer in existence, if I understood that right. Cm'on, lucky Steve, let S&P put out the famous "all channels up" mix you are listening to day and night!
BTW, "Inside Jobim" is one of the few items still on my wish list (no, no, I don't want to set up a bootleg trade on Steve's site, NSL will release it all in due time and thru the proper channels, won't she?)

Arne

 

ArneW - The new mix is different sounding. The mono mix is also different from the original stereo mix to my ears - it doesn't seem to be just a folddown of it. I have a mint mono WLP with 1A stampers (cutting) on both sides. Cover has a little wear however.

 

Thanks Steve- the vocals do seem to be warmer on the old stereo mix (using my orig. LP as a guide) compared to the new (CD). I still think the album was very well recorded. Which tape has the oxide damage?

 

If you want to get a hint of how superb the Reprise stuff COULD sound, get ahold of some of the Sinatra Reprise studio session bootleg material. These seem to be dubs of the studio master tapes without any post-production processing added. The bootleg of the "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" sessions is especially incredible to listen to because it shows how BAD the sound on the released album really was and how great the potential for the sound on these sessions is.

Perhaps Steve could enlighten us on how "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" was messed up so badly in post-production.

Unfortunately, the Sinatra girls (Nancy especially) don't take too kindly to bootleggers and has had two of them busted in the past month, making this material harder to come by.

 

Thanks Steve and feinstein

Steve,
I noticed something interesting recently with that 1st Jobim album. I think it was after your posts about the "dabadaba's" with ArneW. I listened more carefully to the vocalizing with both the original and new stereo mix. I noticed something interesting. It seems that normally Jobim's voice is placed where his guitar is placed in the mix, left on the original stereo mix, mid-left on the new stereo mix. However, I caught a few instances where Jobim's voice seems to come from the center. I only tried this with "I Concentrate On You" the song discussed in the forum. I also noticed there is a little less of this scatting on the original stereo mix than on the new one and one spot in the original stereo mix where there's a blip of it and then they immediately turned it off, I guess right after they heard it. I only checked I Concentrate On You for this also. I should have also checked my mono LP for how much scatting is left in.

feinstein,
You're right. I have one of these Ring-A-Ding-Ding! boots called "The Master In His Workshop". It's mono. It's not perfect sounding, but is much better IMO than anything, fidelity wise, actually released of that album, mostly due to the lack of reverb. Ring-A-Ding-Ding! still needs Steve however.

 

The Master In His Workshop was the bootleg that I was thinking of. The real question is, how can we get Mr. Hoffman and Warner/Reprise Records together so that a proper mastering from the original 3 track session tapes can be done? I kind of wish that Steve Hoffman was associate with one of the big record conglomerates so that we could get some proper mastering jobs done!!!

 

Did the Sinatra family have the clout to choose their own mastering engineer for the Sinatra reissues? If they did, I wished they had gotten Steve to do it.