Sinatra Capitol 20 & 24-Bit Masters

Steve or MMM,would you comment on GOLD! Frank Sinatra CDL-57252 made in Canada.I prefer this version of I've Got You Under My Skin to the one on The Capitol Years.Thank for all the information.

 

Steve,if you happen to run across it,its a good one.I also found eight Sinatra Capitol pre 62 mono albums on your suggestion.They sound great.Thanks for the tip.It would be nice to see Sinatra on SACD.

 

I've seen "GOLD" but I saw the budget price and didn't bother - I didn't think it would have its own mastering due to it being a budget disc. I thought it would a master of something I already had. I guess I'll have to try and pick one up. Thanks Henry.

MMM

 

Steve,

Thanks for your reply regarding the mic setups to my question regarding "Put Your Dreams Away". I went about comparing the different mono and stereo versions I had listening to them "straight" (stereo in stereo, summed mono for mono vinyl), then I also listened to the a couple of stereo versions in mono, just to see what happened. Taking into consideration the wide variety of ways this song was mastered on all the different sources I listened to (and the way these differences affects our perspective of whats going on with the recording), the sound was pretty close. This was pretty interesting since most of the time with these recordings from this period, the mono and stereo are quite different sounding.

Up until 1961? for two different mic setups for mono and stereo. What about the "Nice 'N Easy" album? It sounds (to me) like the same set of mics were used when I compared my mono and stereo LP's. Do you know anything about this Steve?

Thanks again,

MMM

 

Steve, just to clarify - when I said the sound was pretty close on "Put Your Dreams Away" in my last post - I meant it as stereo vs. mono as mixes, distinct from any particular issue of them.

MMM

 

Thanks Steve - I gotta get your "TV Package" Razor & Tie Beach Boys set.

Cheap-o Elvis CD's? I would have guessed they'd have used fake stereo LSP-(e) tapes for the mono stuff, but this is all for another thread I guess. Guessing could screw you.

MMM

 

Steve to the rescue...

 

Steve wrote:

Steve, if you hadn't mentioned it, this would have been one of my next questions. While on holiday in California, way back in the early 90s, I bought a Sammy Davis jr. "Greatest Hits" package on Pair Records. Fantastic sound! There are some songs from the Reprise era that weren't included in the two DCC discs, e.g. "Blue Velvet" and "The Tender Trap". Great stuff!

Arne

 

MMM,when I saw the Capitol Collecter Series it looked kind of budget so I took a pass.Now I've got to find them.Your posts are awesome,keep up the good work.

 

Henry,

Thanks for your contribution and the compliment. Do you know a source to buy the Canadian pressing of the Frank Sinatra "GOLD" CD. I picked up the U.S. version last night. I gave it a quick listen - it had fake-stereo like widening on everything, including "Nice 'N Easy" which is stereo to begin with, and generally boosted highs. It was only $8 minus a discount, so I wasn't out much for this.

Last night in the store where I bought the "GOLD" disc, a few weeks ago they didn't have any Sinatra "Collectors Series" CD's, but last night they had quite a few - it looked like they just restocked, so you should be able to find one. It's pretty good, and that chatter on a few songs would be worth the price of admission even if the sound was bad (but it's not).

MMM

 

I know it's been awhile for me to add to this post. I'll try to get to the 24-Bit "Tone Poems of Color" soon, possibly later today but first:

Just in case anyone either can't hear/doesn't believe my comments with regard to the fake-stereo "widening" Bob Norberg does here's some more "evidence" - (scroll down to a post by Larry Naramore on page 2 (which is hopefully where you will land when you click on the thread). It's the one that has a quote from Bob Norberg and his use of the "Broadie Sound 'Reality Enhancement System'" - even the name of this equipment gives me sour stomach). The part of the quote where Bob says this equipment causes mono sources to become realistic and enjoyable is really disturbing IMO, as if something like "In the Wee Small Hours" is not enjoyable in the pure mono it's supposed to be.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=670&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

MMM

 

Okay, "Tone Poems of Color" in its current 24-Bit EOTC form.

Most people have probably never heard this album. The current issue released earlier this year is the first time "Tone Poems..." has been available on an individual (non box set) CD, so I have to give Capitol credit for putting this out. Original vinyl is somewhat hard to find, especially not chewed up and can be relatively pricey.

This won't be a long "review" of this disc since there aren't any individual problems in regard to specific tracks, just overall problems with the mastering, to varying degrees depending on the song. The usual EQ-ing is performed - rolling off the highs/boost below the rolloff, with more harm to some songs than others. The region boosted often seems to dominate the overall sound too much, and also pushes the perspective forward of what it should be - all especially noticeable when the orchestra plays (relatively) loud. Fake-stereo "widening" is used to varying degrees throughout. Noise reduction is also used throughout fairly heavily - not heavily enough to slow the "pace" and flow of the music too much, but heavy enough to leave artifacts behind "giving away" the presence of electronic noise reduction. What happens here is you can almost hear the processor "filling in the gaps" in the form of soft "bumps" to the sides, which is noticeable here and there on many tracks when the music is playing softly. The nature of this material, with many soft passages, allows these side effects to be audible (use headphones).

Some info on "Tone Poems..." as a recording - distinct from any particular issue of it. I have spoken to John Palladino a few times about his memories of these sessions. The first recording session for "Tone Poems of Color" was the first recording session held in the then new Capitol Tower. By all accounts I have read, it has been stated that the sessions were held in Studio A of the Tower. John Palladino recalls the sessions being done in Studio B of the Tower. He told me that to the best of his memory, the reason for this was because Studio A wasn't fully completed yet. Via phone, we each looked at the same pictures of the sessions and he stated that this was Studio B. He explained to me that Studio A and B looked similar, but Studio A was larger. He said something to the efeect of "look at how they're all crammed in there", referring to the room being too small to accomodiate all the musicians (56?). The sessions were rough for him from an engineering standpoint. As stated in Chuck Granata's "Sessions With Sinatra", the sound of the room itself (acoustics) were not what they should have been. They tried to make the acoustics mirror the ones in the Melrose Ave. studios, but they really could never be the same. Since these were the first sessions held at the Tower, no one realized beforehand the problems with the room. John Palladino told me he first tried to record this album with one U47 microphone, since "Tone Poems..." was closer to a classical project than a pop album. If you look in "Sessions With Sinatra", one of the pictures shows the U47 way above Sinatra's head. However, since the sound in the room was somewhat of a disaster, and since the larger Studio A wasn't ready for use yet so he could position the musicians better, he used about 8 more spot mikes for "sweetening". It was necessary.

Unrelated to this particular session but worth discussing (IMO): It amazes me how humble John Palladino is when I speak to him about the "old days". Wonderful, very nice, talented man. It's always a pleasure to speak to him, about recordings or otherwise. Many times he truly seems surprised that anyone cares about this stuff that went down 40-50 years ago. In the recent interview with Roy DuNann (who in the beginning of his career worked at Capitol) in "Stereophile", the interviewer seemed to have got the same feeling from DuNann - must have been something in the water at Capitol back in the day. John always tries to help me with the questions I have for him, which I am thankful for. He tries to remember as much as he can, which is sometimes hard I would guess when you're 82 years old and you've worked as an engineer or producer on thousands of sessions. He's also honest if there's something he can't quite recall, he'll tell me so, instead of just guessing - but always tries his best to give me a proper answer. I wish I was able to speak to John Kraus, but he died a few years ago, I believe of Alzheimer's disease. A shame. Kraus and Palladino were resonsible for most of Sinatra's Capitol recordings, as well as much of the "Capitol Records High Fideity Recording" sound. They deserve our thanks (along with Roy DuNann, Hugh Davies, etc.) for the great work they did back then. Hopefully one day, the Sinatra Capitol material will be issued in a manner that lets us hear how well these recordings were really made, respectful to all the original participants' intentions, and of course, of a quality that this music deserves.

MMM

 

Hi MMM,

Yes, I have been following all the post including Feinstein, Chuck Granata and your posts with keen interest.

There is a bit of confusion regarding the mastering of Frank Sinatra.
Capitol's questionable and frequent re- mastering of Sinatra's work is partially to blame for the confusion.

The studios definitely have the technology and ability to make great remasters at a cost effect price point.

In my mind Warner Brothers as well as Capitol are consistently the biggest
offenders.

Look, Universal Music Goup, Fantasy Records and Blue Note are able to get
fantanstic results remastering their aging catalogs.

I love the mid and late 1950's work of Sinatra as well as Nat King Cole.
Fortunately Steve Hoffman was able to remaster some of Nat's better
albums. And although Sinatra had a stressed out voice on the DCC 57'
Concert Album. Its my favorite Sinatra music and Steve did a fantastic
remastering job. I measure all of other Sinatra remasters against this
DCC issue. Nelson Riddles Orchestra sounds like it was brought back
to the future out of a time warp or something.

If you are a Nat fan, Ron McMaster at Capitol Jazz has done a stellar,
I'm mean really stellar job remastering with 1956 Midnight Sessions
album.One of my all time favorites. It has been on sale a Tower for
$12.99 for the past week. Another Ron Mcmaster remaster is Nat King Cole Sings/George Shearing plays - also $12.99. Fantastic music and
awesome reproduction.

If Capitol Jazz can do it why can't Capitol Records?- They were practically the same company. Nat Recorded for both and in the same studio. All
his Capitol stuff from that era sounds miserable. Yet the CApitol Jazz
stuff from that era sounds almost like it was recorded yesterday.

Chuck Granata and Steve Hoffman have the right philospophy. Use
a very musical tape player and pretty much direct transfer. The by product will be stunning lifelike fidelity.

I hope that someday soon Sinatra's work will be done with the respect it
deserves.

Thanks for the reply.

Very truly yours,

Gary S. Freed
Elkins Park, PA

 

Thanks Gary for contributing. Back in the day when "After Midnight" was done there was no Capitol Jazz subsidiary - just Capitol Records. Capitol Jazz is a relatively modern-day development. I think (but I wouldn't swear to it) that it's overseen by the Blue Note division of Capitol. Ron McMaster often does the mastering for both. I know he's been trashed in some circles, but at least he doesn't use all kinds of digital processing (to the best of my knowledge). I have a couple of CD's he's done and they're decent. Definetly a different philosophy than employed by Bob Norberg (IMO) I'll have to pick up a copy of the "Complete After Midnight" Nat Cole. I recently passed on an original Gray label LP of this - it wasn't quite in the shape I was told it was. I know it's supposed to be a great album - thanks for the recommendation on the CD. I'll get it soon. I have the Nat/George Shearing LP - very good album. The CD is probably worth me picking up - I think they mixed Nat's voice in the center, instead of to the side on the stereo LP.

MMM

 

And of course, Steve's work on Capitol material - the 3 Nat Cole's and the Louis Prima (and I understand, although I don't have it Peggy Lee's "Latin ala Lee") are what someone should listen to if they want to hear a "Capitol Records High Fidelity Recording" (as the old LP's used to say) PROPERLY on a modern LP/CD. Listening to these also gives us an idea of how Sinatra's Capitol material should sound.

MMM

 

Adding the link to Gary's "A Swingin' Affair" thread:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4947

 

Also the link to the Sinatra Japanese Capitol CD thread:


http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4998

 

Nice 'n Easy 1988/91 issues

Hi,

does anyone hear a difference between the 1988 and 1991 "Nice 'n Easy" CD? Seems to me that the 1991 CD is the same mastering with bonus tracks added.

Arne

 

Hello Arne,

I guess no one else here has heard both. I haven't either - just the 1991 CD (and of course the 2002 Norberg mastered disc I wrote about here). Chuck Granata told me that they sound the same so it seems that you're right.