Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion - Come Dance with Me (released 1959)*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by serge, Nov 15, 2009.

  1. My last word on this issue so as to not divert away from the main thread topic but I think one problem with used LP sellers is the utterly worthless Record Collector Grading System they all seem to lazily refer to, as though this gives them an excuse to blame someone else for woefully inaccurate grading. But let's look at this a bit closer for a minute. What does "a little lessening in sound quality" really mean? Call it ambiguous or misleading but it could be anything: distortion, muddy playback, crackle, surface noise, regular clicks etc. However, that's just a small part of the story. In my own personal experience none of the retailers have looked very closely at the vinyl and sleeves anyway. Scratched records usually reveal themselves to me within seconds of me slipping them out of the sleeves. I'm not examining them at length under a tungsten lamp either, just a quick glance over in normal daylight. So what is the excuse of these sellers sending scratched LP's graded as NM? Arrogance? I'm sure a lot of them simply (over)grade everything as NM and hope for the best, knowing that a) some actually might be and b) the customer might not look at the LP / play the LP and / or complain anyway.

    Some people are very easily pleased. I can document this fact with plenty of hard evidence. I never understood those who do not get what they pay for and elect to keep quiet. I'm with you, Matt, I'm a pretty finicky so 'n' so!

    I will try out recordsbymail.com if international shipping costs are not too high. To be fair, most of my purchases have been from UK based sellers so maybe it is more of a UK problem than a wider problem?
     
  2. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Yep, Craig Moerer doesn't mess around. Their prices are not typically on the lower end, but they are excellent record dealers. I remember buying (among other things) a copy of The Parliaments "Testify" 45 from them for $35, and had no qualms about the price on what they delivered - a *beautiful*, essentially like new record.
     
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  3. AudioVinyl Newbie

    AudioVinyl Newbie Active Member

    Location:
    New York City
    Just to bring things back "on topic" here.....I HIGHLY RECOMMEND the 70s - 80s "SM" reissue of COME DANCE WITH ME!!!! I bought a beautiful NM copy on Ebay a few days ago for $4.99 (with free shipping) and, man, does this thing swing!!! It blows away my new 2015 UMe reissue on all fronts. Sinatra's vocal is clear as a bell with just the right tinge of reverb added. The stereo separation is dead-on with lots of bite in the brass, too. When compared to the 2015 release, this budgewt reissue (on the funky yellow Capitol label) sounds as if somebody lifted a wet rag off of my speakers. It's that much of a "holy s**t" difference!

    I only wish I had found out about this pressing sooner.....Thank you to Matt Lutthans for emphasizing this beauty on his scorecard as the winner.
     
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  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Glad you like it, and to be clear, it was @MMM who brought this one to our attention here on the forum back in 2009:
     
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  5. AudioVinyl Newbie

    AudioVinyl Newbie Active Member

    Location:
    New York City
    I forgot to add that my particular copy is on fairly thin but dead-quiet vinyl, too. It's not "Dynaflex" but it's significantly thinner and lighter than the original 1959 pressing. Although the jacket states that this is "A Capitol Re-Issue", it uses 99% of the original cover's graphics. The spine blends in perfectly alongside my true original pressings (gray label monos and early "9o'clock" stereos)....My only quibble is that yellow label! Frankly, it's quite ugly.....Regardless, I'm still quite a happy camper :)
     
  6. akbg

    akbg Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia
    Many of these are excellent pressings, it has been reported many times around here. They often had the "mastered by Capitol" stamp on the deadwax area. Some are "abridged", though, they will miss some songs.

    Regarding the gradings of records, one simply should not believe or at least be a little suspicious of "NM" records, especially when related to original pressings of records which where quite popular back then. I constanly see original 60s pressings of popular bands, like Beatles records, advertised as "minty" or "NM". While not totally impossible, many sellers apply or send listening samples and any one of them I auditioned had some kind of groove damage. How come a NM record or yet "never played" has got groove damage?? It's simply overenthusiastic. While a bright tungsten lamp will reveal a lot about record condition, it still doesn't tell anything about what happened to the groove and many if not the majority of these records were played with sapphire needles with unknown number of hours on them. I had my share of 45s where a reputable seller obviously had an habit of applying some kind of cleaning agent which makes records look incredibly shiny, yet they sound awafully distorted.
     
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    You might want to track down an SM- or SN Sinatra's Swingin' Session next. I picked up a sealed SM last spring. Gorgeous sound, and only (IIRC) $12 shipped. :righton::righton:

    EDIT:
    This is currently sitting at recordsbymail.com (and I have zero connection to them, aside from being a very happy customer through the years):
    Screen shot 2015-07-17 at 10.18.35 AM.png
    If Craig says it's M-, it's M-. Nothing to fear. Probably an SN edition (based on the sticker on the front), if that matters, so....1980/1981? Odds are good that it reuses the SM stampers, anyway. If you want to know for sure, e-mail Craig, and he'll check, but in my experience the SN and earlier SM releases are essentially identical in terms of sonics.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2015
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  8. Dang! If the record above was "Come Dance With Me" I'd be all over it but I've recently bought the brand new MFSL of SSS for considerably more! I did check and neither recordsbymail.com nor Burka Jazz have CDWM in SM/SN series currently.
     
  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Just had a thought: Has anybody played the 2009 Capitol LP reissue lately? Do you remember: Did it have the wrong mix (the one that's on the 1984 UK LP, and the 2015 LP and HD versions), or the correct stereo mix on the first song on side one, Saturday Night? I've got a 1970s Capitol cut that still used the correct mix on that track. (See here if you've forgotten what I'm talking about regarding these stereo releases.)
     
  10. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    That narrowed "Saturday Night" on the current releases + the "Dell" '84 UK LP sort of reminds me of the *first* (bad) stereo mix of the album on the earlier vintage cuttings, with the echo on Frank mixed right, though not narrow like here.
     
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  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I dug out some LPs to check on the mix used for Saturday Night:
    •1975 Dutch LP, common stereo mix
    •1976 German LP, common stereo mix (nicely mastered, I'll add)
    •SM- and SN- LPs, both cut in the 1970s, contain the common stereo mix
    •Early '80s Japanese LP, common stereo mix (multiple tape generations away from the master, I'd say)
    •1983 MFSL LP, common stereo mix
    @mikrt17 posted a clip from the 1984 UK Dell LP, and it's that weird, revised mix
    •The 1984 Dutch DMM Dell LP uses the original MONO mix, maybe for technical reasons?
    •1987 CD is remixed from 3-track
    •1998 UK CD uses the common stereo mix
    •I don't own it, but IIRC, the 1998 Norberg CD is remixed from the 3-track
    •1999 UK Millennium Edition LP uses the original mono mix
    •2009 "From the Vaults" LP contains the same odd mix as the 1984 UK Dell LP
    •2015 LP and HD versions use the odd mix

    So, unless I'm missing something, since 1984, every LP issue has either used that odd stereo replacement mix on "Saturday Night," or used the mono mix and avoided the problem altogether, either intentionally or by dumb luck.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  12. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Millenium Edition, I think from 1999. The Centennary ones were SWINGIN' LOVERS! (the Walsh CD on LP :rolleyes: ) and COME FLY (mono).
     
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  13. rxcory

    rxcory proud marching band parent

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Help a fellow out by completing the lyric:
    "Come, dance with me, what an evening for... some..._____________________ (almost rhymes with harpsichord)."
     
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  14. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident

    —> Terpsichore

    (pronounced with three syllables instead of four; i.e. "core" instead of "curry" at the end)
     
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  15. rxcory

    rxcory proud marching band parent

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Thank you Bob!
     
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  16. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Ah, thanks. You are correct, of course! I fixed the post.
    I love the translation provided in the 1980s Japanese LP issue:
    DSC_0350.jpg
    An unintended corporate precursor (Pepsi markets Lipton's canned beverages) to this ad (below)???????
     
  17. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Forgot about the Lipton commercial. Great to see that again. Thanks Matt!
     
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  18. Evan L

    Evan L Beatologist

    Location:
    Vermont
    Is that Joe Piscopo doing the voice?
     
  19. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Just noticed something about these two album covers:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    They use the same font in very-nearly the same colors.
     
  20. rxcory

    rxcory proud marching band parent

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    What an awful choice for a photo on the GH one though.
     
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I would normally shy away from posting a tape box photo publicly, but since this particular tapebox is currently on public display at the Grammy Museum in Los Angeles, I figure it's okay to share it.

    Here'e the tape box for the master reel of mono mixes for COME DANCE WITH ME:
    SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapeboxBottomSpine.jpg SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox3TopSpine.jpg SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox2Spine.jpg
    Note (above) that the album is short enough that both sides' masters are on a single reel (assumedly with spoken/announced "slates" for each side).
    Here's the entire set of notes:
    SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox1.jpg

    Anybody able to decipher what the heck John Palladino ("JP") was doing with these mono tapes in 1971 (below)?
    SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox8Unknown.jpg
    I would think that these mono tapes were well retired by this point. This note appears on the text line for "Day In, Day Out." Did that, perhaps, appear in a movie, TV show, or oddball compilation set (in mono) in '71/72, maybe?

    More in next post.....
     
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Looks like the EPs were mastered from this same tape, in the same running order as the LP, two songs per side:
    SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox16EPInfo.jpg SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox7EPInfo2.jpg

    I have been very careful to parse my words when speaking of the mono mixes of Come Dance with Me and No One Cares, both of which were recorded during a brief time period when 3-track monitoring was shoehorned (crammed) into the original Studio A mono booth. While I have acknowledged that the mono mixes MAY have been live-to-mono mixes, I have also maintained that such may not have been the case. Looks like, for this album at least, the mono mix was made from the 3-track tape, and was NOT a live-to-mono mix:
    SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox9 3to1.jpg
    ....with plenty of EQ in play on each song:
    SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox5EQNotes.jpg

    Finally, do we know whose initials these are?
    SinatraComeDanceWithMeTapebox10INitials.jpg
     
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  23. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Forgive my ignorance here...Why is it not proper to post boxes of the master tapes? Trade secrets?
     
  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I think that if a mastering engineer, for instance, were to post tape box photos without permission, record companies may get cheesed off, since it's not really "public info," and may say something like "backup reel" on it that may be problematic should the info get shared with the audiophile crowd. This box is "out there," though.
     
  25. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    OK. got it now. Thanks!
     

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