Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion - Come Dance with Me (released 1959)*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by serge, Nov 15, 2009.

Page 17 of 24
  1. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    X = Scully lathe @ Capitol NYC
     
    MLutthans, Jun 19, 2016
    #401
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  2. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Attention Sinatra Nuts who follow these threads: I need your help! :)

    Over six years later (where does the time go....), and with the old webpages for this album long gone, it's almost time to revisit this album in detail, so I'm looking for people who can send clips to fill some gaps in my own collection. Here's what I already have:

    •Original mono LPs: D2/D1
    •Original stereo LPs: D1#2/D3; D9/D4#2
    •1961 reel-to-reel stereo tape
    •SM-1069 (1970s yellow label) stereo H14/H15#1 LP
    •1970s Dutch stereo "The Frank Sinatra Story Vol. 9"
    •1976 German "2 Originals of Frank Sinatra" stereo LP
    •Japanese 1980s stereo pressing #ECJ-50078
    •1984 UK "Dell" stereo
    •1984 Netherlands "Dell" mono
    •1999 UK "Millennium Edition" mono LP
    •2009 "From the Vaults" stereo LP
    •Walsh stereo CD
    •1998 UK boxed set stereo CD
    •20 Classic Tracks stereo LP (10 of the 12 CDWM cuts are in that collection)
    •20 Classic Tracks stereo CD (ditto)
    •Recent UMe stereo LP

    I know that at some point I've had a green-label SN-series stereo LP, but I'll be darned if I can find it! It's gotta be around here somewhere, but maybe I gave it to a friend or something. I dunno....maybe if somebody here is bored they can send along clips, please?

    Anybody have any clips of versions they can add to the comparisons? If so, please PM me. Let's go with the title track and "Saturday Night" for the two comparison tracks, please. (For the Norberg CD, I've already got the clip I need from the title track, as sent by @floweringtoilet way back in 2009. If somebody could PM me about a clip from "Saturday Night," that would be appreciated.)

    Clips (title track and "Saturday Night") I'm especially looking for:
    •Recent UMe stereo HD download
    •Japanese 1970s release #ECS-70032
    •Norberg CD ("Saturday Night" only)
    •Other 1950s/1960s LPs, mono and stereo (W, SW, T, ST series) - As I recall, both of my stereo copies contain the first, defective stereo mix, so I'm curious to hear other cuts to try to nail down when the transition was made to the corrected mix
    •Different SM/SN pressings
    •Non-USA pressings not already on my list
    •Any of the assorted EU non-licensed reissues that have flooded the market recently

    Also, if you sent along clips back in 2009, I may still have those buried on one of my many hard drives that are gathering dust around here. For instance, I seem to recall that @stevelucille shared some stuff from an early Toshiba Japanese pressing. I'll try to dig those things up, and maybe you can send a reminder of what you sent, if you can recall.

    Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
    MLutthans, Jun 28, 2016
    #402
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  3. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Must have been circa 1961-62 or even earlier. The N14 side two I like is the 2nd stereo mix (there's nothing to like about the first mix, period). Though my copies of it are mid-60's pressings (one an SW prefix, and the other an ST), Capitol stopped using D/N by around 1963. The N14 couldn't have existed before 1961 as the machine stamping is the small, plain type that followed the "script" stamping style, which they changed to in 1961. Whether earlier cuts were made (in LA or NY) before that, I can't say, nor if the change occurred at the same time where they began mastering from the 2nd released mix.

    Whenever the 2nd mix began use, they didn't take previous metalwork made from the first released mix out of circulation - the ST copy I have (noted above) has the earlier mix on side one. It was the first stereo copy I ever bought of the album - when I heard the difference in sound and mix when side two started, I couldn't believe what I was hearing after sitting though side one.
     
    MMM, Jun 28, 2016
    #403
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  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Just getting going on the new comparison page for this album.....mono clips and info posted here: Come Dance with Me - recorded 1958 »

    The only mono versions I have area an original D3#2 LP, the 1984 Dutch DMM LP, and the 1999 UK "Millennium Series" LP. If anybody would like to contribute a clip, please let me know! Thanks.
     
    MLutthans, Jul 8, 2016
    #404
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  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    What the heck?! There's a "verse" intro to the song Come Dance with Me? Has anybody ever recorded it?
    s-l1600-137.jpg s-l1600-136.jpg
     
    MLutthans, Jul 10, 2016
    #405
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  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Found this discussion in another (rightfully closed) thread from eleven years ago (and keep in mind that some statements here may no longer ring true, as people are allowed to change their minds, new releases enter the picture, etc.):
     
    MLutthans, Jul 12, 2016
    #406
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  7. aza14782

    aza14782 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal
    Not really a CDWM specific question but... How is it possible for there to be that much variation between stampers? I figure that it gets mixed, whether direct to mono or 3 track and then the stampers all use that. I understand that D and N will sound marginally different since one is from a dub. I also understand that it will be different if you have a new mix at some point, but I don't get how one stamper of the same mix can sound SO much better than others.:confused:
     
    aza14782, Jul 12, 2016
    #407
  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Hard to say exactly, but different people doing the plating, worn mothers being re-used, new stylus on the lathe vs. a less-than-fresh one, different press with slightly different pressure. Lots of variables -- I think all can affect sound on the actual disk. In theory, though, you are right: they SHOULD sound the same if they are cut with the same settings and the same machinery from the same tapes, etc., and it's my understanding from speaking with somebody at Capitol "in the day" that once mastering notes were made (and approved by the producer, artist, etc.), NOTHING was to be altered, although this did, of course, come to happen as ancillary equipment, EQs, lathes, compressors, etc., got replaced. By the 1970s, for instance, my source tells me that "old reissue stuff," like Sinatra albums, was "cut the way we thought sounded best," at least partly because any notes like "+6/-5" had no meaning if the gear to which those notes was keyed had been replaced with new gear with different knobs, dials, scales, etc. This forced a degree of "winging it" (within reason, hopefully) for reissue lacquer replacements, sometimes to the great benefit of the music (but sometimes not).
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
    MLutthans, Jul 12, 2016
    #408
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  9. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I have a feeling stuff like the N14 side two of this album happened because the person cutting that lacquer chose not to follow the notes, and gave us better sound instead.
     
    MMM, Jul 13, 2016
    #409
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  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    I was playing the 1987 CD today, and noticed that Larry Walsh is not actually credited anywhere on the CD or booklet. Do we know for sure that it was mastered by him? I assume it was, but there were other guys at Capitol dabbling in digital mastering around the same time.
     
    MLutthans, Jul 13, 2016
    #410
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  11. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Considering how two of the songs on THE CAPITOL YEARS 3 CD set reused the mixes/mastering from the '87 CD, and he worked as the engineer with Ron F. for that set, it would at least point in the direction that Larry worked on the '87 CD of the album. If he didn't, I'd guess he might suggest using those existing digital masters for use on the set. It's too bad they didn't remix all four songs on there, because the other two songs they did then newly mix sound better on the 3 disc set.
     
    MMM, Jul 13, 2016
    #411
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  12. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    It does seem odd. Of the first ten Sinatra concept albums issued on compact disc in 1987, seven specifically say in the fine print of their booklets: "Remastered by Larry Walsh at Capitol Recording Studios." The three '87 CDs missing any mastering credit are Come Dance with Me!, Swingin' Session!!!, and Point of No Return. If those were not just an inadvertant omission, one must wonder why another engineer isn't listed?
     
    Bob F, Jul 14, 2016
    #412
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  13. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    SWINGIN' SESSION!!! had the narrowed imaging as well...
     
    MMM, Jul 14, 2016
    #413
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  14. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    What strikes me as odd is that the stereo "image" is reversed on two of the COME DANCE WITH ME tracks within THE CAPITOL YEARS, so on one song, we have brass hard right (as usual), then all of a sudden we have brass hard left on the next -- all from the same original album. It goes back and forth, as I recall.
     
    MLutthans, Jul 14, 2016
    #414
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  15. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    The first two songs from the album on that set are from the '87 CD. The other two are from new mixes done for the set (which sound better).
     
    MMM, Jul 14, 2016
    #415
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  16. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Now added: New clips from a D5/D8#2 "points" label pressing shared by @mahanusafa02 - audio at the bottom of this page:
    Come Dance with Me - recorded 1958 »

    (Thank you, John!)
     
    MLutthans, Jul 15, 2016
    #416
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  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    I checked my copy of the red-label STEREO EP #SEP-1233 that contains "Come Dance with Me" (the song) and "The Last Dance," and it contains the original, defective (?) first mix, the one that has reverb in the right channel only. The open reel tape from 1961, though, contains the second (corrected) stereo mix. The EP was released April 13, 1959 and used the bad mix; the reel came out in, IIRC, Feburary of 1961, by which time the mix had been replaced, FWIW.
     
    MLutthans, Jul 20, 2016
    #417
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  18. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Matt, I'm curious about the source of that precise date for the "French Foreign Legion" stereo EP with "Come Dance with Me" and "The Last Dance." I believe the CDWM stereo LP was released in April 1959, but the EP may not have come until several months later. (Not always a reliable indicator, but based on its catalog #1233, it should not have preceded No One Cares, SW-1221, released July 20, 1959.)
     
    Bob F, Jul 21, 2016
    #418
  19. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Here's the link to the April 6 issue of Billboard: Billboard »

    Screen shot 2016-07-21 at 9.10.13 AM.png
     
    MLutthans, Jul 21, 2016
    #419
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  20. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    ^^^ Thanks, Matt. That would appear to nail it, unless not all of those listed titles made the date. As I stated, catalog numbers are not always a reliable indicator of release sequence, but it's surprising if this EP came out so far in advance of much lower numbers.
     
    Bob F, Jul 21, 2016
    #420
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  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Anybody know the catalog numbers for the other stereo EPs? Perhaps Capitol blocked out a series of numbers for that set of releases. (Just thinking out loud; may be way off base.)
     
    MLutthans, Jul 21, 2016
    #421
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  22. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    EAP 1 1129 – Tijuana Jail – Kingston Trio [1959]
    EAP 1 1181 – Peter Gunn – Ray Anthony [1959]
    EAP 1 1231 – You Made Me Love You – Nat “King” Cole [1959]
    EAP 1 1232 – Fever – Peggy Lee [1959]
    SEP 1 1233 – French Foreign Legion – Frank Sinatra [1959]

    I found the above list online (http://www.bsnpubs.com/capitol/previews/600-2999.pdf), but note: Only the Sinatra disc has the "SEP" prefix and is specifically identified as a "Stereo EP." Do we know if the other EPs were really released in stereo?
     
    Bob F, Jul 21, 2016
    #422
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  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    MLutthans, Jul 21, 2016
    #423
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  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    STEREO CLIPS for "Come Dance with Me" now posted, with thanks to @floweringtoilet @Arkoffs @AxeD , OldCoder, and Rudy .

    Come Dance with Me - recorded 1958 Stereo Releases »

    The first two clips are of special interest, as they use the first stereo mix that was replaced around (I'm guessing) 1960/1961. That first mix is the one that has reverb on the right channel only. All of the LPs that follow use the common, second stereo mix for this track. The US CDs both are remixes; the UK 1998 CD uses the original mix.

    Comments are always encouraged. Please have a listen!
     
    MLutthans, Jul 21, 2016
    #424
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  25. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    I don't know if this has already been covered here, but is there actually a release of mix #2 with an un-butchered "Something's Gotta Give"? I think the "jump start" is on the 1998 UK mastering as well as on "20 Classic Tracks"...
     
    shicorp, Jul 27, 2016
    #425
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