Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion - Come Dance with Me (released 1959)*

It was Stoller on two of the three sessions. You can hear Shelley Manne hot-dogging all over the hi-hat on "The Song is You" -- VERY un-Stoller-ish!

I can get the rhythm section info for you, unless Bob F beats me to it.

Matt

 

I pretty much agree. They all have their pros and cons. Same with at least three of the LP versions, too, IMO.

Matt

PS - I'll try to post a "winners page" later tonight, but it's going to be a "winner by a hair" situation, I think.

 

Below is the liner from MFSL 1-138. (And I see it's Irv Cottler, not Alvin Stoller on the other dates, which I did not realize.)

Also, I've posted a sample from a 10" IN THE WEE SMALL HOURS at the bottom of this "samples page."

Matt

 

Another good belief trumped by factual data. Dang it!

Matt

 

Regarding COME DANCE WITH ME:

That's the same conclusion I drew, and I posted about it in some detail in my online novel, War and Peace II. If you are brave, you might consider tackling it.

 

Slight revision: I'm not sure that the two mic setups are fully equal, but I am convinced that it's more than a 3-mic recording on the stereo version. It is clearly multi-miked.

 

I've completed the "Winners Page" for COME DANCE WITH ME on page four of this site.

On cable news, at least, controversy = heated discussion! Have a listen and let me know what you think.

Matt

 

I believe this is the case with greg1954's copy, as well.

Matt

 

Regarding COME DANCE WITH ME, and specifically this insanely rambling page [2016 edit: Dead link removed] and MMM's comments, reprinted further down in this post:

Martin, my wonderful compadre in critical listening, I thank you for sharing your thoughts on this issue! Having said that, for perhaps the first time ever, I have to respectfully disagree. Some details, and forgive me if I ramble a bit:

1. In the brass track of the stereo recording, there is virtually zero leakage of saxes and rhythm into the brass mic(s). It has brass to the fore, and a little whisper of leakage. This supports the premise that the instruments are miked closer than on ONLY THE LONELY. (So far we're in agreement.) It also virtually mandates that the microphone is a cardioid (directional) mic (U47?), and that the other instruments (saxes/rhythm) were at considerable distance from the mic compared to how close to the mic the brass were.
2. It's certainly possible that more than one directional mic was used on the brass for mono, so we're not in disagreement there.
3. Over on the saxes/rhythm track, brass leakage is all over the place, strongly so. That has to be sourced from somewhere. What's the source? I find it hard to believe that any engineer worth his salt would have said, "We're recording a big band with two mics today, and let's use an omni mic on the quiet half of the band [the sax half] and a cardioid on the other half [brass]." Crazier things have happened, I suppose, but I'd be really surprised if that were the case here. So, where does the leakage come from? Under my scenario (RCA 44 on the saxes, sitting in a circle, Altec 21b on the drums, and mics on guitar, piano, and bass), I see two possibilities, one likely, one less so. The likely one, to me, is that an omni mic was used above the drums (such as is pictured on the SWINGIN' SESSION album cover of one year later in the same studio). Omnis (more or less) do not reject sound from any given direction. If the sound is there, it comes through. If the drums were between the saxes and brass -- very likely -- then they sat right in the "soundfield" of the brass section. That, to me, is the sound that is heard. The less likely option: The saxes used a figure 8 mic, and one of the two axes of sensitivity faced the brass, but I don't think this is the case, as the sax sound is close and clear enough that the gain would have been fairly low on that mic, meaning the amount of leakage would have been naturally attenuated. I'm about 95% sure that the heavy leakage is sourced on the drum kit. Point being: The leakage is being produced by something, and a single cardioid mic being used on the saxes to match the single (definitely) cardioid on the brass would not be a good candidate.

Some additional thoughts in reference to your thoughts:

To my way of thinking, there is no imaging on this album. Is there imaging on this album any more than there is imaging on WITH THE BEATLES? Not much. Here, we have all these guys way over there in one channel (brass), and all those guys way over there (the saxes and rhythm). To a fairly large degree, the brass do "leak" over into the other side; the opposite is not true.

In terms of spacing, I would not be surprised if the players were spaced farther apart on Come Dance than on OTL. From a technical standpoint, if there is one section (brass) that is going to be playing obscenely loud on large chunks of 11 or the 12 songs, and I want any degree of control over the balance in the mix, and everybody is playing together in the same room, I need to place the brass at some distance away from the other sections. They need to be close enough that everybody can still hear each other, but they can't be in each other's laps, either. Considering how little leakage there is on the brass mics, I suspect the separation (in terms of physical space) was fairly pronounced.

Supposing for a moment that the same rhythm section mics were feeding both control rooms (as I believe), there is no reason to assume that they would be utilized in anything close to the same levels/proportions, which could certainly account for the clearer sound that you are hearing on the mono mix. It's also very possible, as I have suggested, that the mono section may use more mics or different mics on any given section(s), and the number one candidate for significantly-different miking would be the brass, IMO. I'm quite confident that the saxes are seated very close to each other and playing into a single mic -- but I could be wrong.

I have posted some samples from the Walsh 1990 remix of COME DANCE WITH ME, along with two from the UK CD of THE LAST DANCE here in order to (attempt to) illustrate further what I am hearing. The clip consists of 4 brief items that will probably require multiple listenings. Specific directions as to "what you are listening to/for" are also on that page.

As always: Have a listen, and let me know what you think!

Thanks,
Matt

PS - there's also the COME DANCE WITH ME 'winners page' here.