Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion - Come Dance with Me (released 1959)*

Yes, I do think it is possible. One of my comments was:

<<It also virtually mandates that the microphone is a cardioid (directional) mic (U47?), and that the other instruments (saxes/rhythm) were at considerable distance from the mic compared to how close to the mic the brass were.
2. It's certainly possible that more than one directional mic was used on the brass for mono, so we're not in disagreement there.
3. Over on the saxes/rhythm track, brass leakage is all over the place, strongly so. That has to be sourced from somewhere. What's the source? I find it hard to believe that any engineer worth his salt would have said, "We're recording a big band with two mics today, and let's use an omni mic on the quiet half of the band [the sax half] and a cardioid on the other half [brass]." Crazier things have happened, I suppose, but I'd be really surprised if that were the case here. >>

....meaning: If it's a two-mics-on-the-orchestra recording, it's going to in all likelihood be a pair of the same mics on the same setting. (U47s, of course, can be set for omni pattern or cardioid pattern.) The lack of saxophone leakage into the brass mics points to the brass mic being a close-in cardioid. On the other side of things, though, there is a lot of leakage into the left track. (I'd expect some from a cardioid, but there is a lot.) This points to an omni being on the sax side of things OR to there being multiple mics on that channel and one being an omni or maybe a figure 8 (bi-directional mic) aimed a little funny.

In the pantheon of "classic stereo mic techniques," there are spaced omnis, and then there are (near-)coincident (or closely spaced) directional mics (x-y, ORTF, NOS), Blumlein, and a few others. No way did Capitol record an orchestra with spaced cardioids! It goes against all the "rules," and it would sound like garbage with a humongous hole in the middle, much worse than you get with spaced omnis, all else being equal. More on that later.

Lots to cover there. I did listen to the samples, and the balances on the Come Dance with Me individual tracks are basically the same (almost identical) to the individual tracks from that oddball early stereo mix on the bottom of my previous page, the primary difference being the full-range tone quality obtainable from the Walsh tracks, and the different proportion on the reverb. Whether it comes from the Walsh tracks or the oddball mix tracks, I still hear the same thing: mic (or mics, debatable) on the brass (not in any way distant), mic on saxes (close), mic on drums (especially evident on the hi-hat sound), mic on bass, mic on guitar, mic on piano (both of whom seem to rarely do much).

As far as the Come Fly with Me recording, you did choose one of the three songs that can really be compared apples to apples with Come Dance with Me. The other nine selections had strings. Having said that, there are major differences between the sessions, mic position and quantity aside:

I guarantee you that Come Fly with Me was recorded with the instrumental mics on omni position, not cardioid. From a listener's standpoint, I am very attuned to how a pair or trio of omnidirectional mics "sound," as I use them routinely when I record orchestras. If you look carefully at this website that I threw together recently when another engineer had to cover one concert within a concert series for me, you will see three omnis (suspended from the ceiling in this case, not on stands, but high up as if they were on one of those big Capitol stands), plus....one of those big Capitol-height stands, used not for broad pickup, but to position two spot mics (cardioids) for the choir. For Come Fly with Me and Only the Lonely, Capitol used two omnis, not cardioids, which is why there is that broad wash of sound on those recordings. I can back that assertion up with sonic evidence, as well. On the track you quoted, Let's Get Away from It All, , the rhythm section is clearly on the far left. If the podium were on the sidelines of a football field, the two instrument mics are cutting that field into thirds, so they would be around (roughly) the 35 yard line on either side, symmetrically balanced around the center, probably (and evidenced in photos to be) quite high and slightly behind the conductor. The rhythm section would be in the left end of the field, coming out to the 30 or so. Drums are loudest, so they are in the far left corner. Bass and drums work together closely, so the bass is likely right next to the drums. Piano is probably in front of the drums, aux percussion (timpani, glockenspiel or concert bells, and xylophone, all played by Frank Flynn, who is portable) along the back line somewhere to the right (our right) of the bass. The harp is closest to the right mic of all the rhythm section, but then again harp isn't really rhythm, I guess. (And that harp sure sounds more like a mandolin in places. In fact, I'm saying it IS a mandolin. On the mono recording, it almost certainly is.) The rest of the "field" is brass and saxes, (once you hit the 20 yard line on the right, it's empty space), and I think they are more-or-less in "concert position," with saxes in the front row, maybe spread out a little to give a tad more stereo "spread" by getting a little face time slightly into "left mic" territory, at least by one of the saxes. (On Isle of Capri, for instance, somebody -- bari sax, I would guess -- doubles on bass clarinet in spots. My guess is they had him sit off by himself further off to the left because he had two really big instruments to switch between "mid-song," and he simply needed the real estate to negotiate the change without making a bunch of clunky noises for posterity.) Behind the saxes we have the trombones, and behind them, maybe on risers, the trumpets.

There is also aural evidence on the recording that these are omni mics being used for stereo. When the band is playing relatively quietly, there is no question that the drums are way over on the left. Listen to this snippet a few times, and listen to the drum set carefully:

http://web.mac.com/mlutthans/iWeb/Site%2040/Welcome.html

Alvin is staying right at home over in that left side until he decides to bang those toms at double forte, and all of a sudden, Alvin shoots over to the right side! This is because the two mics being used on the band are omnis, and when Alvin gets beyond a certain volume, his volume starts bouncing off the walls, and that right microphone, being an omni, is not particular about where it gets its sound from, and it's perfectly happy to pick up that reflected sound off the wall next to it and the ceiling and the back wall and the front wall -- wherever. With cardioids, you would get way less of that effect.

As you said, we do not know when that first picture was taken.

Martin, I think you have misinterpreted what is in that second picture. See here, where it is reprinted, enlarged, highlighted, and, I think, explained.

(Note: Bob did so in his post)

As Bob pointed out, those photos apparently do not come from one of the Come Dance with Me sessions. Furthermore, I think it is very hard to base any assumptions on where a mic stand is positioned against a wall in the back shadows of a photo. Mic stands are big, and they have to always "be" somewhere. At the bottom of this current post, I have presented a photo of the 30th Street Studio, and those mic stands are not what I would call "in recording position," but they could certainly wind up in the blur of somebody's photo.

No argument from me on that last one. Different album, different recording technique.

Back to Come Dance with Me: I've put one additional photo below. I see saxes ("necks" just visible, I think) and rhythm sections (guitarist, I think) to the left, brass on the right (just like on the released album, except for Walsh's 90 mix, which reverses them for some reason), and not a tall mic in sight, and that photo seems to represent the sound I hear.

Of course, I also hear voices sometimes....

Matt

 

Bump: Nearly 4 days, and not a single thought about the "winners page" on Come Dance with Me?? Which is your favorite?

 

I know that MMM is not currently equipped for needledrops, but if anybody else has any of those LPs and could send along samples, I'd love to get them posted for comparison. (Plus, I'd love to hear them because MMM has repeatedly proven himself to have as golden a pair of ears as anybody on this forum. If he likes something, it's generally excellent!)

Matt

PS - Regarding greg1954's comments about the MFSL, I like that one a lot, too, and I think it has the warmest tone of any of the options, and that goes a long ways with me, personally. Having said that, and having listened to the MFSL and the Toshiba many times over the years, I think the "lasting impression" over the long run is just slightly on the side of the Toshiba....but just by a hair. I do agree, too, with the idea that one could be quite happy with the new Capitol. The tone is not quite as rich as some other versions, but it is still quite good, with a certain smoothness that I like.

 

Woo-hoo! Can you send along the deadwax info, too, and I'll include that on the samples page?

Matt

 

I have split this topic off from the CAPITOL 180g reissue thread. Let's keep posting....in the proper place, so it's less confusing.

Thanks,
Matt

EDIT: I've significantly revised page 2 and page 3 of the samples pages. .....and does anybody have the UK/Dell 1984 LP of this title?

 

More changes to the "winners page."

Matt

 

New update made to the winners page, involving a green-label 1980s pressing (with a barcode, even) that I purchased last night. Click here.

Matt