Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion: "Point of No Return" - rec. 1961*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by paulmock, Feb 5, 2012.

  1. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    How much, Paul? I wonder if they have it listed online...
     
  2. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    You know, I am such a selfish S.O.B. I thought about buying it for a second and thought I have like 5 copies of this...why buy another one? Never thinking that anyone here might be interested. It was like $7.99 or some ridiculous price, too. I will go back there at lunch hour or after work tomorrow and see if it is still there. My bad, Martin!!!!:cussing:
     
  3. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Nothing selfish about it, Paul! :)

    I have a couple of copies, but sealed originals don't exactly come up every day (especially for a price like that). If you don't want it and it's still there the next time you're in the store, would you mind asking if they could keep it aside and I'll call or e-mail them to arrange for payment?
     
  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

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  5. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il


    Both stereo clips sound terrific. I would expect the same from the Dutch DMM--I'm surprised that someone here doesn't have a copy from which they can send you a clip.

    You make an excellent point on the mono version, as well: One can get virtually the same mix in much better sound quality by summing the Dell stereo version to mono. I will try that today.
     
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  6. Steve Douglas

    Steve Douglas Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, England
    Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but for those of us without 'mono' buttons on our amps, can you briefly explain how to do this, or point me in the right direction?
     
  7. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il

    You can use Pro Tools, XLD or even Itunes. Do a quick Google search.
     
  8. SCOTT1234

    SCOTT1234 Senior Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    Listening to the stereo clips, subtle differences, both good, but I do prefer the UK Dell - the vocal sits better in my brain!
     
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  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    There's a super-easy way if you have Audacity (which is free, I think). Go to the "TRACKS" menu, and you'll get this pull-down:
    Screen shot 2013-07-29 at 11.53.16 AM.jpg

    Note that the second line down reads, "Stereo Track to Mono." Click on that, and you'll see that things drop from two lines of audio to one. That one track is summed mono, i.e., this:
    Screen shot 2013-07-29 at 11.56.49 AM.jpg

    Note that to the left of the waveform, where it did read "Stereo, 44100Hz 16-bit PCM," it now reads "Mono, 44100Hz......"

    Under FILE on the top menu, drag down to "Export" and choose the format you'd like. Voila! Instant fold-down. Also, the file I've shown is 16/44.1, but Audacity works with higher bitrates, etc.
     
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  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Somebody likely does. (Hello.....Here's my number....so call me maybe....) I think the UK pressings far outnumbered the Dutch DMM ones, even though they were issued at the same time, sad to say.

    I have CLOSE TO YOU 1984 LPs in both DMM and non-DMM variations, and I cannot tell the difference at all, except that the non-DMM has pre-echo, while the DMM does not.
    I think it sounds mighty sweet that way, and if you want to keep your Sinatra/Stordahl stuff 100% mono, it's a good way to go, IMO. It's kind of backwards from the Sinatra/Jobim LP. That one had processing on the stereo that was absent in the mono. This one is just the opposite.
     
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  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Your British pride is shining through! ;) (I also happen to agree with you.)

    Anybody else have a listen? Opinions? Here's the link to the clips: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1962_-_Point_of_No_Return.html (You'll have to scan down past all the blah, blah, blah. Sorry.)
     
  12. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    It's a bit more complicated in older (legacy) versions of Audacity, which I'm still using. You have to (1) split your stereo track into separate left and right channels; (2) change each channel to mono; (3) scale down the volumes (if clipping would occur on the mix); and (4) perform a "Quick Mix" on both channels from the Project menu. Quite a few more mouse clicks, but still not too difficult. I guess the current Audacity has combined all that into a single function. (Might be reason for me to update, but I'm stubbornly resistant to change. ;))

    Complete instructions for both vintages of Audacity here:
    http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Mixing_stereo_tracks_to_mono_in_your_Project
     
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  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Bob, I kid you not: I kept my circa 1990 Mac IIsi computer for something like 13 years only because I had become so incredibly well-versed and comfortable using an audio editing program on that system, and it was not compatible with my (then-)newer Macs. Finally, it bought the farm and I had to tackle the learning curve of new software, but I survived. There are STILL things that I know I could do better, editing-wise, on that old computer than on any of my newer ones. In other words: I feel your pain!

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Matt, I hate to tell you how many years I kept using my first CP/M computer, but I don't want to date myself.

    [Added:] ...but sometimes we reach a "point of no return." (How's that for a thread tie-in?)
     
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  15. SCOTT1234

    SCOTT1234 Senior Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    Just remembered, 'Point Of No Return' was the first Sinatra album I ever listened to (I put it on a friends turntable about 30 years ago) but it never quite grabbed me at the time and I went on to dig stuff like 'Wee Small Hours' and 'Swingin' Lovers' way more. So I've kind of neglected it ever since. But, spurred by more of Matt's sterling work on the Sinatra catalogue (I actually suspect these Sinatra album discussions may be the sole reason I continue to haunt the SHTV nowadays), I'm grabbing a beer and giving PONR some overdue and undivided attention right now.
     
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  16. SCOTT1234

    SCOTT1234 Senior Member

    Location:
    Scotland
    For me, the two high-points on the album are 'Somewhere Along The Way' and 'I'll Remember April' - both superb! Overall, I get a 1940s wartime feel - were they going for something like that? 'It's a Blue World' may trail behind the rest but I'd still rather hear that over 'I'll See You Again', which I thought was the poorest track on there.
     
  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    The pages were becoming a little slow to load, hard to navigate, etc., so I've left the introductory text here and moved the audio samples here. Note that that second page now contains two clips from the 1970s SM-series LP reissue, courtesy MMM. (Thanks, Martin!)
     
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  18. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    By the way, there are at least three copyright-expiration releases being sold in Europe. (I hate these dang things, gotta tell ya!)
    1.
    Screen shot 2013-07-29 at 10.08.26 PM.jpg
    If the online mp3 clips are any indication, the channels are reversed, the bass is goosed, and the treble is rolled off. Same track list as the USA Capitol discs (16 cuts, all Stordahl-conductoed). Available as CD or mp3 download, and an embarrassment on all fronts, IMO.

    2. Screen shot 2013-07-29 at 10.12.04 PM.jpg
    Sounds duped from a CD, probably Norberg. 12 tracks only, mp3 only, at least at this time.

    3. Screen shot 2013-07-29 at 10.14.43 PM.jpg
    24-track 2-fer release, mp3 only (?). POINT sounds like it's CD-duped, but SINATRA SINGS sounds pretty bad (based on the online clips). "Chicago" is full-on Duophonic, and track 10 is listed as "As Time Goes Bye."

    Good to see that carpetbagging is alive and well in 2013.

    Matt
     
  19. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Interesting (?) that the early Japanese red vinyl LP pressings had the 11-track song list on the front, but with different typesetting and the more "old school" Capitol "High Fidelity" logo in the upper right corner. Pardon the poor photo quality, please.
    260586968671.jpg
     
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  20. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I still can't believe that stuff is legally sold for profit in other countries.
     
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  21. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    Matt, I've wanted to pose this question to you for a while but never got around to it until now....

    Baring the odd exception the 1984 Dell LP's seem to consistantly rate very highly and often near the top, why do you think this is? afterall they were early digital transfers at 16/44 and they are competing against all analogue LP's.

    As you know I own all the Sinatra & NKC Dell LP's and I think they sound pretty nice indeed too.
     
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    I'm not a guy to say 16/44 = bad, not by a long shot. If the tapes were well-transferred to digital, and then the LPs were well-mastered from those well-transferred digital tapes, there's no reason they shouldn't sound good. By and large (though, admittedly, not entirely), the Dell LPs are, to my ear, "sympathetically mastered," which is a big part of the equation. Geez, I've heard some Japanese Verve CD releases that peel paint and make me envision an out-house, but they are "hi-rez"-mastered, use the "master tapes," and boast of all their bits and Hertzes right there on the packaging! :goodie: It's like they have no concept of what that music should sound like, like Wes Montgomery emerged from the sky unannounced and they had to figure out a way to make this strange music sound like a contemporary recording. Luckily, they know the function of every button and menu item on every piece of gear in their mastering suite, and they use every single one of them, and to what end? Garbage. Whatever....get somebody with good ears let them do their job in a way that does no harm and brings out the best in what's on those master tapes, SIMPLY. There's your good mastering in a nutshell, be it digitally sourced or analog or hi-rez or Fisher-Price.

    Keep in mind that, had the set been done in, say, 1980, it would have likely been cut from 15 ips analog tape dupes. That doesn't mean they couldn't sound good, but they would have one more layer of analogitis to contend with, one more generation away from the masters. (I would say that certain titles in the 1978 Dutch EMI series and the 1983 French "Close to You" indicate that very, very high quality could be attained, and I'm not trying to suggest otherwise. There's just as much chance for a screw-up or a sub-par mastering job when a tape dupe is used, eh?)

    I think it was in '82 or '83 that Capitol started to do something about preserving their aging analog masters, and that something was to start doing "straight and clean" copies to U-Matic digital, and my guess is that that undertaking in the US was as much an impetus for the Dell series as anything else. "Hey, the yanks are copying all their old-fogey masters to digital. Can't we get exact copies of those digits here in England? Say....that's a jolly good idea!" They (EMI in the UK) got a couple of wrong transfers along the way, but by and large, Capitol transferred the right tapes and EMI used them tastefully to cut LPs. All music should be so lucky!

    There's still one Dell tape that remains a complete mystery to me: How is it that in 1984, the UK got a UNIQUE remix of the song, "Nice 'n' Easy," for a 12" single and a compilation LP? Why did they not just use the LP mix, which *was* used on the Dell "Nice 'n' Easy" LP?

    Oh, one other question that is still unanswered: How is it that the ROMANCE: SONGS FROM THE HEART ALBUM "catches" both of the edits in the first part of "As Time Goes By," but then totally misses the last one? Doesn't that imply that the first half of the song was edited from the spliced, "regular-use," "A Reel" 3-track tape, and the end of the song utilized an uncut "B Reel?" And there's no mention of anything unusual in the liner notes? Something seems fishy there.
     
  23. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    I think the stand out thing you mentioned there Matt is "Sympathetically Mastered" like you suggest that makes all the difference, you mention the case of the Japanese Verve CD's, there are many modern CD's I have that come nowhere near sounding as good as those Dell LP's, so I guess you can have the highest res source but if you mistreat it in the mastering stage the results will always be poor.

    I think the one thing about the Dell LP's that has surprised me in the comparison's you've made is how favourably they compare to many of the previous analogue masterings.
     
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  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Yes, I think they were generally handled gracefully and respectfully, with only the most-tasteful of tweaks when needed, and they do stack up quite well, at least to my ears.

    Look at the Norberg CDs: Master tapes, over-reaching ("unsympathetic?") mixing/mastering.
     
  25. hodgo

    hodgo Tea Making Gort (Yorkshire Branch) Staff

    Location:
    East Yorkshire
    I'm with you there on the Norberg monstrosities they were an insult to Frank and he should never have been allowed near those tapes.

    I do miss Alan Dell, I used to listen his BBC radio 2 show each week, the man knew his stuff and you could tell he really loved the music so in a way it shouldn't be any surprise how good the Sinatra & Cole LP's sound.

    Another person I miss in similar vein is the late Benny Green his show on a Sunday was fabulous, I think this is where my love of this kind of music came from, listening to Alan Dell, Benny Green & the great David Jacobs
     
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