Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion: Songs for Swingin' Lovers - Released 1956*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Dec 3, 2009.

  1. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Re-asking this question. It was easily lost in all we were throwing at you @MLutthans

    This would account for the discrepancies in song-to-song volumes (2014/2016 vs. original LP) and would also explain why some tracks have their phase flipped.

    Please explain to novice what this phase flipping means and is it that important/noticeable on a monaural recording. THANKS!
     
  2. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Question/wonderment..

    So, if the new lp is cut from this "new master" that perhaps mfsl made and used on the sacd of SFSL, what about the other new reissues?

    Theory: MFSL had all the Frank Sinatra main Capitol titles mastering done and ready to go. The "enterprise" put on the breaks with the new campaign. We get several pretty darn great sounding titles on lp with the new reissues. Now, we can say pretty surely that the new SFSL is most likely the MFSL mastering.

    However, if we look at say "Come Fly With Me" and "In The Wee Small Hours" they sound pretty darn good too. Could it be that they used the MFSL masterings for these also? They sound very good, so why not? We dont have any idea what the MFSL masterings sound like, so we cant compare. But, cant we say its likely this is true? Why would they use the MFSL mastering on one new lp reissue and not the others?

    ITWSHs and CFWM= MFSL masterings?.....could it be?
     
  3. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Nah; not noticeable.
    Let's say a wave looks like this:
    800px-Simple_sine_wave.svg.png
    If it's flipped/inverted, it will look like this:
    Inverted.png
    In a nutshell, up is down, and down is up.
     
  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Come Fly with Me bears Ron McMaster's initials in the deadwax. He had mastered the same title in 2009, also with the initials there, and I see no reason to doubt that he was able to have the tape librarian pull the correct reels in 2009, then cut the LP all-analog, and I see no reason to doubt that this was repeated last year, especially since the LPs apparently sound nearly identical.

    As for Wee Small Hours, call me highly skeptical.
     
  5. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Drat!, foiled again!
     
  6. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    OK. I guess that obvious if I was paying attention.:oops: Thank you.

    BTW, that bottom wave reminded me of the swingin' Granny of Playboy comics lore!!!!
     
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I still sleep during class on a daily basis. Not to worry!
     
  8. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    No.
     
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  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Somebody e-mailed me about the new LP, and since it's somebody who reads the forum, I thought I'd just post my thoughts here. The question was about the new LP being cut from the MFSL hybrid disc. Just to reiterate: My initial comment on the topic, before I had the LP, was:
    and I'll repeat the obvious disclaimer that I typed in response to a question from @paulmock a few days ago:
    The visual evidence is back in post #461. To my knowledge, only two releases of this album have ever had waveforms that look like the MFSL release, and that's the MFSL release and the new LP. As far as sound differences between the two releases are concerned, I'll stand by this:
    To follow that up, here are two new clips (both from within the freely available "iTunes window" -- no free music being given away here).

    Clip #1: https://app.box.com/s/9s52po2rhev9x0n85uwk0de4u9l524by - A 60-second clip from the opening track, alternating four times (roughly every 15 seconds) between the two sources (MFSL and UMe).

    Clip #2: https://app.box.com/s/c2aaytuyaiz27q9au1srzk7g2fn19xlg - A bunch of very brief clips that repeat themselves: Once from one source, once from the other.

    To me, as I said before, these sure sound like they are "cut from the same cloth," and I'll leave it at that.

    Finally, I'll repeat the two other things that lead me to say that the new LP uses the new master.
    One:
    To clarify: I'm not saying (necessarily) that MFSL brought about the missing "phew" or the clipped off opening. It's very possible that these are tape issues that MFSL inherited. All that I'm saying is that both of these quirks appear on the MFSL hybrid disc and the new LP, and, to my knowledge, there are no earlier 16-song LP releases that had both of these characteristics, so it's certainly odd that it would appear on the MFSL and then appear on the new LP by mere coincidence.

    Two:
    Also, I don't own every single new UMe reissue, but I'm pretty sure that this title and September of My Years are unique insofar as the dates that appear on the sleeves and labels. Here's a post from the A Jolly Christmas thread:
    The new LP of September of My Years reads: "Originally released in 1965 (P) 2010 (C) 2015." It definitely uses the 2010 Concord CD remix.
    The new Songs for Swingin' Lovers LP reads: "Originally released in 1956 (P) 2014 (C) 2015." It appears to use the 2014 remastering.
    (The recent Swing Easy LP, by comparison, merely reads: "Originally released in 1954......(C)2015.....")

    An ex-girlfriend of mine used to say, "Unless you actually see the baby shooting out, never ever ask a woman if she is pregnant." I'm not in a position to say that the new Swingin' Lovers LP is pregnant, but she seems to be.

    Have a listen to the audio clips if you're bored! :wave:

    EDIT: I've also added a clip to the comparison pages, if interested: Songs for Swingin’ Lovers - 1956 »
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
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  10. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Ok, so no to mfsl mastering on CFWM and ITWSH. But this begs the questions: Why wouldnt they use the mfsl masterings? Is it simply because mfsl may feel they will be able to use theirs in the future? Were mfsl not able/allowed to master these two, therefore new mfsl masterings do not exist?

    1) If new mfsl masterings do exist, then that is at least hope.

    2) If they did not get to them before the window closed; then Id think this doesnt bode well for mfsl to one day be able to remaster them.

    Im hoping number 1 is true.

    I realize we cant really know and also realize it most likely dossnt matter but am curious as to what you guys think.
     
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  11. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    VERY WELL DONE, Matt! This is probably the most important release of the UMe's (along with Swingin' Affair! and Ring-a-ding-ding!) as far as correct sound goes. You've listened and posted evidence that we can all "buy with confidence" on this one. I speak for all of us when I say a heartfelt "thank you" for all of your efforts in getting this information gathered and shared. :tiphat::shtiphat:
     
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  12. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Obviously the Songs for Swinging Lovers is the MFSL remaster! Great sound.
     
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  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    "MFSL masterings?" What does that mean?

    For Come Fly with Me, I'd be shocked if the intact, original side one and side two master mono reels do not exist and are not in good shape. For LP, then, MFSL would assumedly thread up that tape, listen to it, make some decisions on what EQ they'd like to use and how to set the mechanical settings on the lathe, and their LP would be cut on their lathe from those Capitol-supplied tapes. Their LP "mastering" would only exist on paper and lacquer. After they've cut the LP, they'd send the tapes back to Capitol, no different than when Capitol shipped them out. If they were doing an SACD along with the LP, then I suppose that Capitol could cut their new LP from MFSL's SACD mastering, but how would that be advantageous to cutting from the master tape, assuming the analog master exists and is in good shape? (For the record, in this day and age, I would never rule out an LP being cut digitally, but I see no reason to just assume that MFSL would do this for a given title.)

    Wee Small Hours? That could be a situation of things having to be re-assembled to create a 16-song version, but who knows? (I flat-out do not.) From 1962-1998, the album was routinely hacked to death, both in terms of track count and sound quality, but in 1998 there was a well-sourced, 16-song release in the UK. Does that mean that the 16-song, dry US master tape was found and used? Re-assembled on tape? Re-assembled digitally? I think the jury's out, and things are muddied considerably by the fact that things have happened in this order:

    •1960s US LP: abridged and wet (reverb-added tapes used)
    •1970s UK LP: full-length and dry - analog-cut in the UK by Harry Moss, assumedly from a high-quality analog dub tape
    •1980s US LP: abridged and dry - cut from a sliced-and-diced set of "master" reels, or from high-quality tape dubs? (Probably the former?)
    •1983 MFSL LP - total screw up (wrong tapes, etc., etc., etc.)
    •1986/1991 USA CD - Dry tapes used, but reverb newly and erroneously added -- so the dry tapes existed in some form, but no LP was cut, so who know what sort of "reels" existed at this point.
    •Australian unabridged CD that followed the 1986 USA CD: Some dry tapes, some 1962 wet tapes, some tracks dubbed from the 1986/91 US CD!
    •1998 UK CD: full-length and dry - sounds great! Digital copy of US masters? Or UK dubs? (Does it matter much, sonically?) Again, no LP issued.
    •2009(?) US LP: "full-length" (sort of) and wet, with one song being the wrong song! I think that this is only likely to happen if the LP were being cut from digital files with somebody goofing during the "drag and drop" process of lining the songs up in running order, but that's speculation. (I remain shocked that somebody would not notice this.)
    •2014 HD and LP: full length and dry, almost certainly from a digital source (for LP)

    The "correct tape" masters for Wee Small Hours certainly seemed to disappear for years and years, possibly (I lean slightly toward "probably") resurrected in the early '80s for the USA mono LP reissue (abridged) and in 1998 for that (unabridged) UK CD. To resurrect the 16-song, dry version may have been something as simple as re-arranging the songs in the right order, i.e., I wouldn't rule out that in the early '80s the 8-song side one reel was re-spliced to be a 5-song side one reel (for purposes of cutting the abridged LP sides), with the 3 excised songs simply being attached to the end of the reel following a bunch of leader tape for easy abridged LP cutting and for easy storage. Same for side two. It may, then, have been something as simple as having to re-splice the songs together in proper running order to re-create the 8-song (per side) "dry" master reels. Then again, it could have been a heck of a challenging hunt to cobble together dry tapes for all 16 songs from dry sources. Who knows? (I certainly do not, duh.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  14. 762rob

    762rob Forum Resident

    I would agree listening through a big pair of Klipschorns beautiful pressing no surface noise whatever, solid sounding very pleased.
     
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  15. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    With the importance on the "dry" sound of the correct tapes for the 1st time in 57 years!!!!
     
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  16. rxcory

    rxcory Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Aye aye aye. Time for me to revisit your Capitol Scorecard!
     
  17. DLant

    DLant The Dap-Gort Staff

    Listened to the new reissue last night. WOW! It was amazing.
     
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  18. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    :DTold ya!
     
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  19. topekatj

    topekatj Well-Known Member

    Location:
    NorCal, Bay Area
    I hope it's OK to add to this thread. I post infrequently but found this thread last week after I scored a '56 grey label pressing in VG+ condition for $7! The sound of this record is truly amazing! The dead wax on my copy reads D28 on side 1 and N3 on side 2 in italicized script printing, with the 'little houses' on each side, as well. The record labels both state "Long Playing - High Fidelity". I've listened closely but cannot claim to have heard the "whew" and humming mentioned in posts 93 and 121, but I'll keep listening. Thanks to all who make this forum such a useful and interestng resource!
     
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  20. JP Christian

    JP Christian Forum Resident

    I'm not home to check, but I wonder what source did the UK 1984 Alan Dell vinyl LP use?

    I believe I have the 1998 UK CD from memory, and from memory it does sound great.
     
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    For Wee Small Hours? The 1984 Dell LPs (UK and Netherlands versions) use wet tapes. The 1998 UK Dell CD uses correct, dry tapes.

    Capitol Scorecard »
     
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  22. JP Christian

    JP Christian Forum Resident

    Turns out now I'm home I don't have the 1998 but the 1991 Holland CD - It says mastered by Larry Walsh, sounds drier than the 1984 LP... would this be the same as the 1991 US CD?
     
  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    The 1984 LPs use the early 60s reverb-added tapes. The 1991 CD (on all but "Last Night When We were Young") used the correct tapes but added new stereo reverb, so they are similar.....but different. (The 1991 CD uses the 1986 abridged CD for 15 of its 16 tracks, with "Last Night" newly added, and from the correct tapes.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
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  24. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    Even though I have maybe 12+ copies of this album (various editions, along with a batch of first pressings), today at a garage sale I picked up yet another first pressing for 25 cents. This one was special because the cover (original design of course) is absolutely mint without a scuff or tear, and still having a 60 year old "brand new shine" on the cover, just perfect. I could not pass that up. I enjoy originals so much more than any MFSL edition, or new vinyl of any quality. They have a direct connection with history, with the Voice in his time.
     
  25. kennyluc1

    kennyluc1 Forum Resident

    Matt your clips are such a great help...what a job u do !!!
     

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