Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion: "Where Are You?" (1957 album)*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Jan 13, 2010.

Page 6 of 22
  1. mikrt17

    mikrt17 Life has surface noise.

    Location:
    BROADSTAIRS UK

    Yes Bob its my all time favourite Sinatra album as well and a mono version would be a dream come true but I'm not holding my breath.
     
    mikrt17, Oct 6, 2012
    #126
  2. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    Just ordered the older cd, not the remastered version and I found a used lp that is also on the way. Thanks for the free education and the heads up. Class is always in session with Matt. Yes, I am taking notes.
     
    Jim T, Oct 6, 2012
    #127
  3. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Bob F, Oct 9, 2012
    #128
    CBackley likes this.
  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    In the thread about the soon-to-be-released MFSL mono reissue of this title, the following came up in discussion regarding the 1983 stereo release:

    There is certainly 100% hard evidence that MFSL's CLOSE TO YOU was a digital cut, as it has a definite digital "squink" (a "zit" as some apparently call it) during the song "Don't Like Goodbyes." That sound comes from one place: a problem on a digital tape.

    Then there's the question of how the mono track ("I Cover the Waterfront") was suddenly inserted into an LP pressed (supposedly) from the "Original Master Recording," when the original stereo master reel simply does not contain said track.

    Here are snippets from a 2001 interview with Gregg Schnitzer about MFSL's early days, from the now-defunct aurelm.com website:

    Now, in Sinatra's case, there was only one record label involved, but the above point does tie in with this part of the interview:

    Keep in mind that this was catalog #MFSL 1-047, which came out well before the #MFSL 1-134 LP of "Where Are You?"

    *I have to correct Mr. Schnitzer here. This was a Liberty release, and Liberty was owned by Capitol at this juncture, so Capitol is the company that wouldn't allow the splices.

    So:
    •There is a definite, audible digital glitch in CLOSE TO YOU, proving that digital mastering was being done on the Sinatra box, at least on some titles.
    •MFSL was using digital mastering -- secretly -- well prior to the Sinatra box.
    •Capitol would not let splices be made to produce "Kenny Rogers Greatest Hits" a couple of years prior to the Sinatra box, so the LP was cut digitally (unpublicized).
    •"I Cover the Waterfront" does not physically exist on the stereo "Where Are You" master. It had to be "cut in" somehow. Unless Capitol had a change of heart and allowed a physical splice to occur, then it was done digitally.

    MFSL was doing a LOT of digital stuff during this time period. For instance, all those MFSL cassette releases? Like "Magical Mystery Tour" with all 11 tracks in stereo?

    and
    Then there's the whole MFSL Rolling Stones box and the "Mobile Fidelity Sound" oddball credit that appears on the London CDs a year or so later. I'll let Lukpac chime in on that one if he is so inclined!

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Oct 9, 2012
    #129
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  5. DJ WILBUR

    DJ WILBUR The Cappuccino Kid

    Location:
    Upper East Side, NYC
    great post Matt, thanks....
     
    DJ WILBUR, Oct 9, 2012
    #130
  6. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Magnifico, Matt!

    You are the Sherlock Holmes of Audiophilia.

    People really ought to be more careful about charging someone like Matt with drawing conclusions on the basis of insufficient evidence......
     
    rangerjohn, Oct 9, 2012
    #131
  7. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Imagine that! That dude has more useless...um....ahhh...I mean....incredible information in the 1/2 side of his brain than I'll ever have in my entire brain!

    You go, Gort Matt!!!:righton:
     
    paulmock, Oct 9, 2012
    #132
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  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    You were correct the first time, Paul. Most of it's useless! :) ...and for the record, I still can't 100% confirm that WHERE ARE YOU (specifically) was digitally mastered, but the evidence and logistics sure point in that direction.

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Oct 9, 2012
    #133
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  9. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Nonetheless, that is one of my favorites from the Silver Box. It sounds real purdy to my ears.

    FWIW, I played my gray label mono last night. It sounds really nice but I could use a MoFi mono upgrade. As all of us do, I hope it turns out to be a goodie.
     
    paulmock, Oct 9, 2012
    #134
  10. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    You make a much better case for it than the guy who stated flatly, "There is nothing digital about the 1983 Mofi lp"—without supplying any "actual evidence (not supposition, but evidence)" to support that statement.
     
    Bob F, Oct 9, 2012
    #135
  11. StAbbeyRoad

    StAbbeyRoad New Member

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    I would take anything Schnitzer says with a grain of salt. This is the same guy that claimed that mofi erased part of a Pink Floyd master, also untrue.

    Instead of drawing your own conclusions and believing that you can tell a digital squink from an analog one, why not contact mofi today and talk to someone who doesn't clearly have a bone to pick with the place like that Schnitzer guy?
     
    StAbbeyRoad, Oct 9, 2012
    #136
  12. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    I think we're all interested in accurate information here.

    You seem to be picking your arguments selectively. Besides Matt's "defense" above, you're ignoring this reply in the [post=8142654]other thread[/post]:

    Nothing definitive, but the evidence seems to be mounting to suggest at least the plausibility of some digital mastering. To my mind, the biggest clue with regard to *this particular LP* is the fact that no stereo version of "I Cover the Waterfront" has ever surfaced. What MoFi released in 1983 could not have been exactly the ORIGINAL MASTER RECORDING, as claimed. So why not believe there may have been some digital splicing involved?
     
    Bob F, Oct 9, 2012
    #137
  13. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa I'm an ear sitting in the sky

    Location:
    USA
    In Matt's defense he has stated he is unsure if the album is digitally sourced. I trust Matt's ears.
    Contacting MOFI will do you no good. I doubt anyone there knows what happened that long ago.
     
    aoxomoxoa, Oct 9, 2012
    #138
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  14. StAbbeyRoad

    StAbbeyRoad New Member

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    There is no reason to think that I Cover the Waterfront wasn't spliced into the analog reel. And, I've contacted MoFi in the past and there are at least two employees still there since the early 80's, so I wouldnt assume that asking about old releases would be useless.
     
    StAbbeyRoad, Oct 9, 2012
    #139
  15. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    I can think of some very real reasons why that wouldn't have been allowed. But Matt covered it above.
     
    Bob F, Oct 9, 2012
    #140
  16. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    Again, just for the record: There is a 100% digital "squink" on the Close to You album. I've been working with DAT, DASH, and video-based PCM tapes since 1988, and that squink in "Don't Like Goodbyes" is a digital squink, period. Nothing else makes that unique sound.

    Anything else is open for interpretation, but since Capitol disallowed splicing on a master in 1981 or so (whenever the Kenny Rogers thing came out), I'd be surprised if they were allowing it in 1982 or '83.

    I'm a firm believer in "more information is better," so if anybody is so inclined to dig into this matter, go for it, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that a significant chunk of the MFSL silver box is digitally mastered, and again, "that's not a necessarily a bad thing."

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Oct 9, 2012
    #141
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  17. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Moreover, Capitol would have had to cut up BOTH the mono and stereo master reels, and then reassemble them. Hardly seems likely for an album of such importance.
     
    Bob F, Oct 9, 2012
    #142
  18. StAbbeyRoad

    StAbbeyRoad New Member

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    It's funny (and oddly touching) how you guys marry yourselves to a belief system (capitol would never have allowed this, Schnitzer said that) to the point where learning anything becomes impossible.

    Experience with digital equipment makes you experienced, not infallible.

    And I see still dont see anyone talking about making a move to contact mofi directly today. Why not?
     
    StAbbeyRoad, Oct 9, 2012
    #143
  19. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Saint (for lack of any name in your profile): You indicated that you've contacted people at MoFi in the past. Why not do us all a service, and contact them yourself? It seems to be a lot more important to you than to anyone else posting about this.
     
    Bob F, Oct 9, 2012
    #144
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  20. Jim T

    Jim T Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mars
    My "Where Are You" Larry Walsh mastered cd came today. What a great mastering job.

    I have the Norberg version and within the first few notes I was unmistakable how much better the Walsh Cd is. Thanks to Matt and Bob for the continuing heads-up on great Sinatra Recordings. I have the lp (used) arriving this week as well and am really looking forward to that and hope it is in VG condition likes the seller said.

    The spaciousness of this disc is so good and balance of Frank and the orchestra is near perfect to me. Hard to believe this is from 1957. A must have disc for sure.
     
    Jim T, Oct 9, 2012
    #145
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  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    MLutthans, Oct 9, 2012
    #146
  22. ArneW

    ArneW Senior Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Could be...the original analog master tape, fed into a lathe with digital delay (thus combining the worst of both worlds).

    Explanation: http://www.opus3records.com/vinyl.html

    That's just guessing. But that noise sure does sound digital - not like the occasional hum which is induced in my stereo when a neon light or refrigerator is switched on.
     
    ArneW, Oct 11, 2012
    #147
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  23. ArneW

    ArneW Senior Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Matt, if you made a needledrop of the album @24/96 and loaded that file into Adobe Audition, would'nt you see a hard cut at 20.000 cycles if the album were cut from early digital?

    Arne
     
    ArneW, Oct 12, 2012
    #148
  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA, Salina, KS, Los Angeles, CA
    I don't know, on multiple fronts, including this tidbit from Mr. Schnitzer: <<This means that the resulting vinyl would exhibit a sampling rate of 88kHz*. Curtis never figured out that we had done this at half speed. >>

    *(Technically, I'm assuming, 88.2 kHz, if it matters.)

    Matt
     
    MLutthans, Oct 12, 2012
    #149
  25. ArneW

    ArneW Senior Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Now that's clever to begin with. But then, you would have nothing under 40 cycles. Since most vinyl doesn't contain much information below 50 cycles, that wouldn't be easy to detect. But we could try...
     
    ArneW, Oct 12, 2012
    #150
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