Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality: "Come Swing with Me" (1961)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I know we are not done looking at RING-A-DING DING yet, but with the holidays coming up, I thought some advance warning on this one may be appropriate.

    Please send me a PM or e-mail if you are able to share clips from "American Beauty Rose" from this album. I have the MFSL and the Walsh CD, and that's it.

    Thanks as always! We couldn't do these comparison pages without each other's help.

    EDIT: Here's the link to mono clips: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1961_-_Come_Swing_with_Me!_2.html

    Matt

    UPDATE:

    The following are already accounted for (thank you):


    D6 Mono
    D1 Scranton mono
    Japan 9:00 red vinyl mono
    Australian 9:00 N6 mono
    Scranton 12:00 N14 stereo
    German 9:00 stereo
    SM series H1 stereo
    MFSL LP
    Alan Dell UK stereo
    Walsh CD
    1998 UK CD
    2000 Norberg

    The more the merrier! If you have a clip you want to send along, please PM or e-mail me. Thanks!
     
  2. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I have nothing actually posted yet (EDIT: Now I do, see here), but here's my brain-teaser question for the Sinatra nuts with well-tuned ears:

    Which song on this album has an odd little overdub in the original mix that's missing on the Walsh remix (and possibly elsewhere - I haven't checked, and I'm not picking on Larry's excellent work on this title)?

    Also, I have not checked all the mono samples, but my own British mono LP that I bought recently is definitely a fold-down of the original stereo mix.

    Discuss! :wave:

    Matt
     
  3. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident

    I'm not sure if this is the one you mean, Matt, but the CD album version of "I've Heard That Song Before" has an intercut which is missing from the (presumably uncut) remix Larry did for Ron Furmanek in the THE CAPITOL YEARS 3-CD set.

    Here's what I once posted at the SFF:

    The beginning and end of the song are the same in all versions of the track. The intercut begins during the first instrumental bridge, which starts at 1:08, and continues into the verse which leads into the second instrumental bridge at 1:40. An effect of the intercut is to change the line at 1:28:

    from: "It's funny how a theme recalls a favorite dream."
    to: "It's A-funny how a theme recalls a favorite dream."​

    Note that Sinatra's first use of this line (at 0:24) includes the "It's A-funny" phrase.

    The unedited version ("It's funny…") appears in the following CD issues:

    1990… THE CAPITOL YEARS (US)
    1996… THE COMPLETE CAPITOL SINGLES COLLECTION
    1996… FRANK SINATRA SINGS THE SELECT SAMMY CAHN

    The edited version ("It's A-funny…") appears in all the CD issues of CSWM, including the 1991 Walsh, the 2002 Norberg EOTC (also in the CONCEPTS box and mini box), and the 1998 London box. Note that the Norberg and London versions are identical, but the intercut starts at a different spot in the Walsh version (which is why I know these are in fact the altered versions).

    The question is: Which was used on the original LP? I have a source which indicates it was the unedited version, although I wouldn't trust that without a listen.* (I don't have the LP.) If true, then why was the intercut used on the CD reissues?

    Note that this song was also issued as a single, which may have some bearing on the existence of different source tapes.

    (*Ron Sarbo informed: "The LPs have the same [intercut] version as the CD of CSWM.")
     
  4. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Interesting. Maybe no dedicated mono mixes were ever released because the album was intended to feature a dramatic stereo effect (i.e., the separation of the band into different channels, with call/response musical passages emphasizing the separation).

    Curious to hear more....

    Thanks Matt.
     
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  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Bob, you are 100% on the right track, but that's not the answer I was after. (What you say is accurate though.) In fact, you are so spot on that I'm going to give another hint and some clarification:

    1. There are two songs that have the piano on the left track instead of the right, and both songs have an element of studio "trickery pokery," as John Lennon once quipped. "I've Heard that Song Before" is one of them.
    2. Hint: The other song is the one that includes the "overdub" that I was asking about. I put overdub in quotes, because that may not technically be the correct term (although it works for me). There are 2 bars of music that feature what sounds like a "tape-on-tape superimposition," i.e., two tapes being run in sync to add something in during the mix process.
    3. Unplanned bonus hint: Think "Only the Lonely."

    I'm making "the slog" from Seattle to Portland and back today, so I'll check in later tonight.

    By the way, mono or stereo, this is a beautiful sounding album, and I've really been enjoying listening to all the variations. The French Horns and mallets really make this one special for me, sonically speaking.

    Matt
     
  6. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    So, the other mono clips you have are not fold-downs, Matt? or do you mean that the fold-down sounds very good as well?

    Safe travels.
     
  7. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    While were into this LP, let me direct all listeners to the LP that inspired this album. It's "Billy May's Big Fat Brass" which (allegedly) Mr. S listened to and liked so much that he asked Billy to do an album for him with that same type of "ping-pong" effect. It's a great recording in it's own right.:righton:
     
  8. stevelucille

    stevelucille Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rochester, NY USA
    Agreed! A Great album in it's own right!
     
  9. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident

    "Yes Indeed!" is the other song. It's really tough to even make out the piano on most of these tracks, and it's curious because the bass and drums are in the right channel on all the tracks.

    I've only listened to the Walsh version so far, so I haven't yet identified the "overdub."
     
  10. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident

    I really love this album. So many people compare it unfavorably to the SWING ALONG WITH ME on Reprise, but I remember when they both came out (nearly simultaneously) and this was my favorite by far. I think because it showed off my first stereo system so well. :)
     
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  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I actually have only listened to my own LP (British) in mono; haven't checked out the other mono clips yet. My assumption is that they are all from the same mix, meaning they are all fold-downs, but I don't want to say that until after I've actually listened carefully.

    On another note: Yes, Bob is correct that the other song with the piano on the left is "Yes, Indeed," and on the Walsh version the piano is just about non existent near the beginning at:

    You'll shout when it hits you, yes, indeed! Yes you'll shout (Ba-dump, ba-dump).....

    Those ba-dump piano parts were not picked up on the 3-track tapes, apparently. Maybe somebody twiddled the wrong knob at the session? Maybe a mic or cable failed? Hard to say 50 years on! Regardless, it was awkwardly patched up in the original stereo mix (and the fold-down mono mix that resulted). I'll get some samples posted to illustrate this, and once it hits you, you'll holler.

    Matt
     
  12. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    He's not only smart, he's funny, too!!!!:help:
     
  13. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    "Yes, Indeed!"

    Sorry to preempt your observation on "crack/back" on the other thread, Paul......
     
  14. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    Great minds think alike! No big deal.;)
     
  15. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Don't forget handsome! :goodie: ;)

    Matt, the lovable rogue
     
  16. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
  17. salleno

    salleno Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. Cal.
    Looking forward to your evaluations Matt!
     
  18. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    :thumbsup:

    As always!
     
  19. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
    On a first listen, Matt, I'd say that the Japanese red vinyl is too bass heavy, and the D6 sports too much echo on the vocal. Your UK fold-down is driest of the three, no?

    Are either of the other two dedicated mono mixes?

    P.S. I love the timeline you provide; fascinating to think that this was recorded alongside of I Remember Tommy.
     
  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    My thoughts on those mono clips pretty well mirror what rangerjohn posted. The D6 sounds a little hollow and reverbery (new word). The Japanese version has more bass, but there is some really goofy processing going on, like a mis-set limiter in the chain or something along those lines. The dynamics are a mess. The UK, aside from some groove damage on my particular copy, has pretty good tone.

    I haven't done an in-depth listen on any but my own UK copy, but I'm pretty sure that the mono mix -- regardless of pressing -- is a fold-down from the stereo. I am positive the UK version is, and I think the mix is the same on them all.

    (I haven't posted it yet, but I've got a clip assembled that flips back and forth between the MFSL LP manually folded to mono by me, and the UK mono LP, and the two are identical sounding. I think the whole point in transitioning from stereo vocal reverb to mono vocal reverb [No One Cares, Nice 'n' Easy, Swingin' Session, and this album] was to be able to derive a mono mix from the stereo mix. The mono vocal reverb within the stereo mix is a bad move overall, in terms of sonics, leaving $$$ and convenience as reasons to use mono reverb. I don't think anybody actually did it because they thought it sounded better.)

    Matt
     
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I've got some fold-down info now posted.

    Matt
     
  22. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    I just acquired a Dell/UK edition of the LP on Sunday and MY OH MY! It is a really, really great sounding disc. Incredibly silent platter and I'd have to say it's the best sounding copy of this album I own.
     
  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Sorry to be so slow in getting new stuff posted on this, but I've been burning the candle at both ends of late on other stuff, with Sinatra firmly on the back burner. (Ouch!) Anyway, I now have some stereo LP samples , here -- some really gorgeous sounding vinyl in some cases. Comments welcome!

    Matt
     
  24. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Matt, the best I've heard this album sound is on a D2 cut side two. My copy with that cut is paired with a N5 side one, like you have sampled. The N5 is not bad sounding, but it's a little dull to my ears. However, with what I hear to be a rise somewhere in the top end of Steve's cartridge on the samples, the dullness doesn't come through so much on there.

    I also have a copy with a D3 cut on both sides. I don't remember all the details off hand, but I don't care for it. I seem to remember it was somewhat hard sounding, with its tone not being so pleasant. Not awful, but nothing great.

    I'd need to get a copy with a D2 side one, to see how it compares with the D2 side two.

    As far as the samples go, the Mobile Fidelity sticks out as very bright. It sort of gives me the impression it was Eq'd like that to push the cymbals up in the mix.
     
  25. paulmock

    paulmock Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    An anniversary bump for this LP. It was recorded fifty years ago this weekend! And tomorrow is the 50th anniversary of the historic date where Mr. S recorded seperate sessions for both Reprise and Capitol and we had to wait 29 years for a release from the Reprise session! That song, of course, is the gorgeous "In the Blue of Evening" from the first sessions of "I Remember Tommy"
     
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